Trigger words: higher power
Indicator sentences: But if by "higher power" you mean something that can and does defy the rules of science and is unexplainable by humans with their current understanding, then it is perfectly logical (and I would say undebatable) to conclude that a higher power exists.
Negotiation parts: We could always keep saying "well what caused that" and take ourselves as far back as time could possibly go. I don't think this relates at all to a higher power, simply because I don't see any reason for belief in something that is transcendent in some way, something that communicates with humanity directly. For all we know, the big bang was some guy pushing enter on a computer and starting a simulation of a universe. That guy would, technically, be a higher power, but he wouldn't be the one people keep saying exists. Wouldn't you agree that saying "we don't know, and can't know, so it could be that it is a higher power" is legitimately rational? I'm not necessarily saying that higher power has any objective or even any care or concern for human kind. But by definition, isn't something that defies science and is both unexplainable by, and incomprehensible to humans a "higher power"? It's the burden of proof. Something doesn't exist by default. Our lack of knowledge of the truth doesn't mean it's automatically religion, it simply means we don't know yet. A lot of things in quantum physics defy science, in that they're unexplainable or don't go along with the laws of physics. But I wouldn't say that these things are a higher power, I would just say that they're interesting. That's the thing. Just because we don't know the answer, that doesn't automatically make it religion. There is no legitimate evidence supporting it, so why would you believe in it? Again, just because you don't know the answer, that doesn't automatically make it religion. Arguing that God exists because there's nothing else that explains how the universe got here is entirely without evidence. It's just as likely God created the universe as a giant purple penguin named Fred did. You mention religion in your response on at least 4 different occasions. I'm not talking about religion whatsoever. I'm talking about "a higher power". [STA-CITE]> That's the thing. Just because we don't know the answer, that doesn't automatically make it ~~religion~~ **a higher power**. There is no legitimate evidence supporting it, so why would you believe in it? Arguing that ~~God~~ **a higher power** exists because there's nothing else that explains how the universe got here is entirely without evidence. [END-CITE]When you take the religion aspect out of it and simply retreat back to "a higher power", I would agree that there is no evidence identifying that a higher power created the universe. However, our knowledge of science says that the universe *can't* exists. Because our knowledge of science says that matter cannot be created out of nothingness. So it isn't just that "we don't know". It is that we think we *do* know; but what we *do* know tells us that what we're experiencing is impossible. The very existence of the universe *is* the evidence. Because based upon what we know, the universe can't exist. In my mind, that is, by definition, a "higher power" [STA-CITE]> It's just as likely God created the universe as a giant purple penguin named Fred did. [END-CITE]Yes. As I mentioned previously you can call the higher power whatever you want to call it: [STA-CITE]> > God, Allah, Abraham, the Great Spaghetti Monster, the unknown, pre-science, etc [END-CITE]I absent-mindedly left Fred the giant purple penguin off my list. But Fred could just as likely be the higher power as anything else. What is really boils down to is, when you said this: [STA-CITE]> I'm looking for a legitimately rational argument that supports belief in some sort of **higher power**. [END-CITE]What did you mean by the phrase "higher power". To me, higher power simply means something that is beyond human comprehension and understanding. And by that definition, the existence of the universe is beyond human comprehension and understanding. A higher power certainly isn't the *only* possible explanation. But it is a **legitimately rational possibility; which is the threshold that you set.**