Dialogue ID: t3_3a8t65

Corpus: Winning Arguments (ChangeMyView) Corpus

URL: https://convokit.cornell.edu/documentation/winning.html

License:

WMN sequences (4):

WMN ID: t3_3a8t65_t1_csadheh

Context: Online interaction

WMN Type: Non-pursued

WMN Meaning: no WMN

Trigger words: middle class (8) Middle class "middle" class

Indicator sentences: Since it has to do with lifestyle change, rather than income I think it should be okay if we begin with a definition of middle class that isn't the standard 35K-100K household income. There are better ways to define middle class, that seem more statistically accurate. [Pew defined middle class households as those earning 67%-200% of a state's median income.](http://www.businessinsider.com/middle-class-in-every-us-state-2015-4), and that's what I'll use.

WMN ID: t3_3a8t65_t1_csafsnk

Context: Online interaction

WMN Type: WMN: disagreement

WMN Meaning: both

Trigger words: middle class (9) Middle class

Indicator sentences: You seem to have a weird definition of middle class.

Negotiation parts: Humans always relate their situation to others, not on an absolute scale. By your way of thinking *no one* was "middle class" 100 years ago, even the very rich, and that's just kind of absurd. Middle class pretty much by definition means "near the median" (or to a lesser degree the mean). Income distribution is just about the *only* thing that matters to whether the middle class is shrinking or growing. If most people are at the top and bottom, then the middle will be small. That's what "middle" means. It's not a definition of a particular standard of living. Just wanted to point out that this isn't anywhere near most definitions of middle class: the 'middle class' is so called because they are between two other classes in a 3-class model, *not* because they are 'middle-income'. Culturally, when we refer to "the middle class" we typically have a certain standard of living in mind about what that means instead of a dollar amount. If we do have a dollar amount in mind, it very closely linked to the standard of living it would afford. [This business insider link](http://www.businessinsider.com/middle-class-in-every-us-state-2015-4) was provided by another redditor showing the state by state median income and defining middle class as earning 65-200% of that. I would argue that if you look at your state (assuming you are American) and look at the median income or lower bound, you would not feel that income would allow for our current cultural perception of a "middle class" standard of living. It might be possible with a crippling amount of debt thanks to near zero interest rates, but there are signs that house of cards will come crashing down sooner than later. Instead, I am suggesting that the median income would provide closer to the older definition of a middle class standard I provided, and those aspiring to the current standard of living are largely attempting to live an upper-middle class to wealthy lifestyle, and wondering why that "middle class" is shrinking.

WMN ID: t3_3a8t65_t1_csah1rv

Context: Online interaction

WMN Type: WMN: disagreement

WMN Meaning: potential meaning

Trigger words: middle class (5) Middle class

Indicator sentences: Middle class is a relative term: it's only a meaningfully distinct term in relation to two other classes. By trying to tie the definition of the term to some sort of concrete empirical reality (as opposed to a social reality), you're ignoring the relativity of the term.

Negotiation parts: When people say that the middle class is shrinking, they're generally not using 'middle class' in the academic sense of the term (which is *purely* about social relations), or to talk about people who *identify* as middle class (as this has been increasing for over a century), but to mean people with incomes or occupations that they consider 'middle class'. Whether this group is shrinking or expanding is purely a numerical thing, you can't really dispute it. The problem with your view, then, is you're trying to tie the social sense of 'middle class' to some sort of purely numerical sense similar to 'middle income'. [STA-CITE]> but to mean people with incomes or occupations that they consider 'middle class'. Whether this group is shrinking or expanding is purely a numerical thing, you can't really dispute it. [END-CITE]You can dispute their definitions of middle class and try to convince them that certain occupations or incomes are middle class despite their initial prejudice that those should be considered lower or upper class. Indeed, I think this is what OP is trying to do: claim that the numerical definition has changed and that comparing the size before/after the change reveals more about the definition than about incomes.

WMN ID: t3_3a8t65_t1_csbltb8

Context: Online interaction

WMN Type: WMN: non-understanding

WMN Meaning: situated meaning

Trigger words: works

Indicator sentences: How do you define "works"?

Negotiation parts: By works I mean is accepted by the masses and society as a valid system for running our country/economy.