[PS4DT]
[UNCLEAR] Mr [ANONYMIZATION] was also sharing his wife with Mr [ANONYMIZATION] ?
WMN: JNE_594
Dialogue: JNE
[PS4DK]
I have n't heard that .
[PS4DT]
No . Right .
[PS4DK]
Okay , yeah , right .
[PS4DT]
So you see where we get to ?
[PS4DK]
Yes .
[PS4DT]
You go into the master bedroom , man and woman in bed . Is n't it obvious in a second that it 's not [ANONYMIZATION] it 's Mr and Mrs [ANONYMIZATION] ?
[PS4DK]
At that time no . No I 'm afraid not , no .
[PS4DT]
You still thought it was [ANONYMIZATION] ? When you burst into the bedroom [UNCLEAR] ?
[PS4DK]
I I 'm being perfectly honest , I did n't know who it was . I I did n't know [ANONYMIZATION] er and I did n't know the occupants of the flat .
[PS4DT]
No but you did know that the husband and wife and [ANONYMIZATION] . You had no reason to think that [ANONYMIZATION] was er sleeping with the man 's wife I say again
[PS4DK]
No
[PS4DT]
Is n't it obvious within a second that you must be looking at the husband and wife ?
[PS4DK]
I have to say again I 'm sorry no it it was n't obvious to me at that time definitely not .
[PS4DT]
You thought it , is this right , you thought it could be [ANONYMIZATION] it could be [ANONYMIZATION] ?
[PS4DK]
I have to say that yes .
[PS4DT]
And it was only er when this man , could have been [ANONYMIZATION] , said what are you doing in my house ?
[PS4DK]
Yes
[PS4DT]
You that you accepted that as as conclusive that it was [ANONYMIZATION] and not [ANONYMIZATION] .
[PS4DK]
Not conclusive but certainly that is when I started thinking that we did n't have [ANONYMIZATION] .
[PS4DT]
That [UNCLEAR] more likely is that you realised well nigh immediately that it was Mr [ANONYMIZATION] , that 's why you said to Mr [ANONYMIZATION] I 'm arresting you for harbouring an escapee .
[PS4DK]
I had good reason then to suspect that it could well be [ANONYMIZATION] .
[PS4DT]
Because of what he said ?
[PS4DK]
Because of what he 'd said and because I 'd asked his wife who he was .
[PS4DT]
Not because he was in bed with his wife that did n't [UNCLEAR] ?
[PS4DK]
I did n't know that was his wife , erm [UNCLEAR] .
[PS4DT]
Well I did bother to ask who you 'd thought would be in the flat , you said [ANONYMIZATION] Mrs [ANONYMIZATION] Mr [ANONYMIZATION] .
[PS4DK]
Yes yes that 's correct , yes .
[PS4DT]
One minor point you heard the [ANONYMIZATION] give evidence , you know it 's a issue between you whether you shouted armed police or you did n't .
[PS4DK]
Of course yes .
[PS4DT]
There 's no point in me um rehashing that . But why , you 'd just forced the door open prior to arrest why do you wait until you got to the bedroom , indeed got the bedroom door open before shouting armed police . Why is n't it shouted from the start so that everybody knows from the start who you are ?
[PS4DK]
Okay right yep . Well the situation there is firstly there is little point in shouting and identifying ourselves if , firstly there 's nobody in the flat , or secondly er we 're giving advance warning that we are coming along the corridor to a possible location , er of somebody with a firearm . So what we would do then is identify the fact that we 've come into the building and therefore alerted everybody that lo and behold down the corridor are coming police officers .
[PS4DT]
But I thought you were saying in answer to a question my [UNCLEAR] was putting to you that one of the reasons for shouting armed police was so that everybody knows you 're armed police .
[PS4DK]
That is correct yes , but only when we encounter somebody in front of us . Prior to that , definitely not .
[PS4DT]
You were n't more than [UNCLEAR] from the hall you were about six foot to the door to the master bedroom .
[PS4DK]
I I ca n't recall [UNCLEAR] .
[PS4DT]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4DK]
It was very close , yes .
[PS4DT]
Crossing that distance I suppose in a hurry was going to take you erm considerably less than a second .
[PS4DK]
Definitely , we do n't if we were crossing an area that had n't been secured by any other officer , so we were particularly concerned that we should get out of any possible danger area .
[PS4DT]
So I 'd suggest again that the sensible place to shout armed police is as soon as you enter because the fraction of a second between you getting from the hall to the bedroom is n't going to make any difference .
[PS4DK]
Yes , I 'd argue that it does make a difference , because we are announcing the fact that er we are coming along to to possibly alert somebody er that we were coming into a building and then hence we encounter even more problems .
[PS4DT]
You ca n't answer for the other officers but you can answer for yourself . Would you agree with Mr [ANONYMIZATION] that on this sort of raid the adrenaline 's flowing ?
[PS4DK]
Without a doubt , definitely .
[PS4DT]
Is a specific gun , issued to a specific officer or is it just er a a group of guns issued to a group of officers ?
[PS4DK]
Er , the easiest way to answer that is er all of our guns have a unique serial number . So for example , if I went on er a job on Monday I could possibly draw gun number three but the following day if we went on a similar operation I might get gun number six . So , there is no specific gun issued to an individual officer as his own personal weapon .
[PS4DT]
Yes I 'm sorry I I
[PS4DK]
Oh sorry
[PS4DT]
did n't mean that , what I meant was on this er exercise were , was it written down for instance that erm P C [ANONYMIZATION] has Smith er Smith and Weston number thirty two ?
[PS4DK]
Yes that 's correct yes .
[PS4DT]
[UNCLEAR] .
[PS4DL]
[UNCLEAR] In the heat of the operation is there anything to stop you handing it to one of the other officers if that should be necessary ?
[PS4DK]
No not at all my Lord . In fact er just prior to the start of the operation er I made a decision to change the shotgun holders over . I have to say now in at this moment in time , I ca n't remember why I did it , but it was an operational decision that was made en route to the flats that we swopped shotguns with er another officer .
[PS4DT]
Sorry . [UNCLEAR] very clear , you 've got two officers with shotguns , do you mean that it 's just he gave his shotgun to him and vice versa or you nominated two different shotguns ?
[PS4DK]
I I recall that I in effect directed that an officer should carry a shotgun as opposed to the original officer that er was down for that weapon .
[PS4DT]
Yes [UNCLEAR]
[PS4DL]
[UNCLEAR] the shotguns were just ordinary twelve bore double barrel shotguns were they ?
[PS4DK]
Er my Lord they 're twelve bore , single barrelled pump action shotguns with a slightly shorter length er than is a normal shotgun that you 'd purchase in er a firearms dealers .
[PS4DL]
Oh .
[PS4DT]
Can you remember now who the shotguns were originally issued to ?
[PS4DK]
I have to say I 'm afraid I ca n't erm I have thought about this yes .
[PS4DT]
Because the the nettle I 'm grasping is this ah it is said by the [ANONYMIZATION] , both of them , that it was you who had what they call a long barrelled gun , it must be a shotgun .
[PS4DK]
Yes .
[PS4DT]
So I was hoping that there 'd be a record showing one way or the other but if
[PS4DK]
Okay
[PS4DT]
you 'd swopped over the record would n't help , is that right ?
[PS4DK]
That would be correct yes .
[PS4DT]
So
[PS4DK]
But that is certainly not the case , I did not have a shotgun .
[PS4DT]
Well I appreciate you deny it because er you said in answer to my friend that erm as I am required by rules to put it , er I do put to you that yes , you did have a shotgun , perhaps erm borrowed from one of the officers , yes you did put it to Mr [ANONYMIZATION] head and you did tell him to er er shut up and wait for C I D.
[PS4DK]
I can assure everybody that that is not correct . That is totally wrong .
[PS4DT]
Now what about Mrs [ANONYMIZATION] ? While you were in the bedroom where was she ?
[PS4DK]
She was er still in bed .
[PS4DT]
On oh sorry , in , lying down or on sitting on the edge ?
[PS4DK]
Er she 'd sat up er obviously when we moved into the bedroom and from there I 'm not exactly sure what she was doing , in as much as she was n't a threat so therefore perhaps I I did n't pay that much attention to what she was doing . My direction was gazed er drawn to the man .
[PS4DT]
Let me try and jog your memory . She says that when you erm pointed the gun against her husband 's head she went [UNCLEAR] towards you , grabbed by another officer .
[PS4DK]
Right .
[PS4DT]
Do you disagree ?
[PS4DK]
Well I disagree in as much as I have said that I did n't have a shotgun and ignoring that fact then that I did n't have a shotgun she certainly did not make a lunge at me .
[PS4DT]
You do n't seem able to recall what [ANONYMIZATION] said either at the start or er somewhat later after he 'd been handcuffed . What he says he was saying is who the fuck are you , recall that at all ?
[PS4DK]
No no I do n't no .
[PS4DT]
Well do the best you can er I do n't want exact words obviously but what was the burden of what he was the gist , the effects of what he was saying ?
[PS4DK]
With respect er I was n't paying too much attention to er to what was being said in as much as this possibly sounds negative but our concern is not for what people are shouting at us our concern is for whether we 've got a threat er in a particular area , in this case the bedroom , and whether we can try and sort that threat out before somebody is injured . Whether it 's us or an innocent member of the public .
[PS4DT]
Yes but forgive me you must listen to what 's said to you because somebody might be saying to you Lawrence [ANONYMIZATION] is under the bed .
[PS4DK]
Oh yes , yeah of course .
[PS4DT]
So you listened what roughly was said ?
[PS4DK]
I listened but if it 's of no evidential value there is no point in listening because I 've got so much on my mind at that time erm to to sort out that threat in there that I certainly ca n't recall what was exactly said or even along the lines of what was said .
[PS4DL]
But I erm , I do n't think there 's much between you and erm the plaintiff on this . You say when you had handcuffed him he said something to me asking along the lines of what were we doing in his house .
[PS4DK]
That 's correct my Lord yes .
[PS4DL]
Well he says when he had been handcuffed I said who they were , who the fuck are you ? Which sounds exactly the same is n't that right ?
[PS4DK]
Along those lines my Lord yes .
[PS4DL]
Yes .
[PS4DT]
And er again I have to put to you I you 've heard the [ANONYMIZATION] say and I do think you 'll disagree .
[PS4DK]
Sure .
[PS4DT]
What I suggest to you is far more officers than the three you gave evidence of perhaps five or even the full six at some stage found their way into that master bedroom .
[PS4DK]
That is not correct in as much as every individual officer was tasked to an individual action and therefore there was no need to come into that bedroom the area er if they 'd have heard [ANONYMIZATION] shouting or whatever in that bedroom they would have known not to come into that area because there was obviously a threat in there .
[PS4DT]
Well if what you say about this information that [ANONYMIZATION] was in the master bedroom is true , they might have every reason to come into the master bedroom to see if er the , who was sleeping in the [UNCLEAR] .
[PS4DK]
No because our training is such that there is n't the officers just would not come into that bedroom at all because there is a threat in there and I 'm dealing with that threat and unless I specifically call for another officer to come and give me a hand there is no need to come in and in fact if anybody had 've done they 'd have been told to get out because I 've got a problem there and that 's my problem .
[PS4DT]
So presumably two of the armed officers remained guarding this eleven year [ANONYMIZATION] in bedroom two and two remained covering the kitchen ?
[PS4DK]
No that 's not correct because I 've also already called up to P C [ANONYMIZATION] into that master bedroom when I 've left or as I was about to handcuff er the man . So we then have three officers in there and I leave leaving the two officers whilst I go and check the rest of the place out .
[PS4DT]
So who was left guarding [ANONYMIZATION] in the small bedroom one or two ?
[PS4DK]
I ca n't recall when , when you say guarding , I ca n't recall exactly what the officers were doing but that would have been erm one of P C [ANONYMIZATION] or P C [ANONYMIZATION] or both , I do n't really know who was erm sorting that side of it out .
[PS4DT]
You see I am , you can see what I 'm suggesting to you , there 's not much point in an armed officer guarding an eleven year old child it would have been obvious to go to the master bedroom , but you deny it .
[PS4DK]
Right , the reason that er an officer would still stay er with an eleven year old child , a three year old child , or t to get to the realms of fantasy a ninety year old person is that person can still be at risk not necessarily from the police officers , but from anybody else in that building and therefore they 've got to remain er in that room until such time as I 'm satisfied that everything is clear .
[PS4DT]
Again something that I just have to put . It was n't you who helped Mr [ANONYMIZATION] get some trousers on that was done by the C I D when they arrived ?
[PS4DK]
I have to say that it was me , I did that .
[PS4DT]
Yes and just finally , no idea at all where this information that [ANONYMIZATION] was in the master bedroom [UNCLEAR]
[PS4DK]
I 'm sorry I I do n't know .
[PS4DU]
Yes [UNCLEAR] examination . You 've had a number of questions from [UNCLEAR] about whether you knew the man in the bedroom was Mr [ANONYMIZATION] or [ANONYMIZATION] . I just want to ask you this . Did it matter to you at that time who it was ?
[PS4DK]
No no definitely not .
[PS4DU]
Was your objective to be to secure him ?
[PS4DK]
That 's right and he , we would have done the same if we 'd have found six men in there , er they all would have been secured until such time as I was happy that the the flat was clear .
[PS4DU]
And it 's being put to you that not being [UNCLEAR] it 's been put to you straight , you 're in effect lying about guns , that you had a shotgun . That 's been put to you . Now , tell me , tell me , tell the jury again does a team leader is there any policy as to what gun a team leader should carry ?
[PS4DK]
No there seems no logic in taking a , a long barrelled weapon er in as much as the team leader perhaps has a few more responsibilities than the other officers have and I would be going forward to handcuff whoever was in that bo er in that bedroom . I can not do that with a long barrelled weapon . I could n't do that er with the officer who had the shield . There , there 's no way I can hand over a long barrelled weapon to that officer . So straightaway there there is absolutely no reason at all for me to have a long barrelled weapon
[PS4DU]
Well it 's [UNCLEAR] the plaintiff 's saying is you had one and and you handcuffed him , nevertheless , notwithstanding the fact that you had a long barrelled weapon .
[PS4DK]
I could say a
[PS4DU]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4DK]
very smart answer to that but erm I 've got to carry a shotgun in one hand and handcuffs in the other and still deal with en e eventuality , I just ca n't do it .
[PS4DU]
And it 's been , yet again , been put to you directly that Mrs [ANONYMIZATION] did indeed lunge at this imaginary weapon . Now I wan I want to ask you about that . In your , in your experience do er members of the public lunge at armed police officers ?
[PS4DK]
They do n't and to be dramatic they 'd be very , very silly to do so because I would take any step to avoid that happening . Whether that was erm a child , whether it was a woman , anybody who tries to take my firearm from me would really have serious problems .
[PS4DU]
Because presumably if anyone was to get your firearms , [UNCLEAR] .
[PS4DK]
They will use it to shoot me , and I , that will not happen ever .
[PS4DU]
So in reality had Mrs [ANONYMIZATION] tried what has been suggested she may well have been struck .
[PS4DK]
She definitely would have been struck .
[PS4DU]
And she would have no doubt told [UNCLEAR] about that .
[PS4DK]
I 'm sure .
[PS4DU]
Perhaps a matter of [UNCLEAR] . And finally , erm again we 've been told that you either not remembering or you 're lying about the trousers . [UNCLEAR] Is that something you can easily forget , pulling a man 's trousers on when he 's got handcuffs on and lying on his front ?
[PS4DK]
I remember absolutely one hundred percent doing that , and I have to say that if I was faced with a similar situation again of a naked man , I really do n't know if I 'd bother to put his trousers on .
[PS4DU]
Thank you very much . [UNCLEAR] further re-examination .
[PS4DL]
Well just , just remind us a little bit , now y you have been very definite , you had a hand gun .
[PS4DK]
Yes my Lord yes .
[PS4DL]
And not a shot gun .
[PS4DK]
Definitely .
[PS4DL]
What did erm the others have ?
[PS4DK]
Okay my Lord .
[PS4DL]
You you immediately erm followed the officer with the shield [ANONYMIZATION] .
[PS4DK]
Yes my Lord .
[PS4DL]
What did he have ?
[PS4DK]
He had er a revolver that was holstered throughout the entire operation to the best of my knowledge that was the case .
[PS4DL]
And anything else ?
[PS4DK]
No my Lord no .
[PS4DL]
And the shield of course .
[PS4DK]
That 's correct yes .
[PS4DL]
And what about the others ?
[PS4DK]
Er P C [ANONYMIZATION] would have had a shield and a revolver that once again would have been holstered . P C [ANONYMIZATION] would have had a revolver that I would expect to have been drawn .
[PS4DL]
Yes .
[PS4DK]
P C [ANONYMIZATION] had a shot gun and P C [ANONYMIZATION] had a shot gun .
[PS4DL]
Yes yes thank you .
[PS4DU]
My Lord there 's just one point I wonder whether I can clarify [UNCLEAR] .
[PS4DL]
Yes certainly [UNCLEAR]
[PS4DU]
This is a P C [ANONYMIZATION] and [ANONYMIZATION] had a shot gun .
[PS4DK]
Each , yes .
[PS4DU]
Each . Did they also have a revolver each ?
[PS4DK]
Yes I beg your pardon . Yeah , my fault my Lord , yes they both did but those weapons would have been holstered .
[PS4DL]
Yes that makes up to the total number of guns [UNCLEAR] . Yes thank you . Thank you Sergeant .
[PS4DK]
Thank you my Lord .
[PS4DL]
Yes Mr [ANONYMIZATION] .
[PS4DM]
Yes my Lord can I say w , your Lordship says that and for the benefit of the jury , that with the subsequent officers [UNCLEAR] objections [UNCLEAR] I 'm not going to take them through their training or their [UNCLEAR] .
[PS4DL]
No no certainly not .
[PS4DM]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4DL]
No .
[PS4DM]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4DL]
Yes .
[PS4DM]
Lord I call P C [ANONYMIZATION] .
[JNEPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] I swear by Almighty God .
[PS4DN]
I swear by Almighty God .
[JNEPSUNK]
That the evidence I shall give .
[PS4DN]
That the evidence I shall give .
[JNEPSUNK]
Shall be the truth .
[PS4DN]
Shall be the truth .
[JNEPSUNK]
The whole truth .
[PS4DN]
The whole truth .
[JNEPSUNK]
And nothing but the truth .
[PS4DN]
And nothing but the truth .
[JNEPSUNK]
Mr [ANONYMIZATION] could you tell the court your name , rank and station ?
[PS4DN]
My name 's [ANONYMIZATION] at the moment I 'm a temporary detective constable at [ANONYMIZATION] police station .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes , well could I ask you to er tell us a little bit [UNCLEAR] Lord the jury and [UNCLEAR] and in December of nineteen eighty eight what was your rank and job ?
[PS4DN]
I was a police officer erm attached or er on a permanent basis with the operations support unit which we were based in er [ANONYMIZATION] .
[JNEPSUNK]
Is the operational support unit what we call the firearms unit ?
[PS4DN]
That 's correct .
[JNEPSUNK]
Were you involved in an operation to enter [ANONYMIZATION] ?
[PS4DN]
Yes I was part of the firearms team that was er briefed [UNCLEAR] to enter that department .
[JNEPSUNK]
And when would you first , when did you first become involved in that operation ?
[PS4DN]
Erm when we were telephoned at home and called out to report to [ANONYMIZATION] Police Station erm I ca n't remember the exact time that we got to [ANONYMIZATION] Police Station and it would have been er somewhere in the region of four o'clock in the morning .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you [UNCLEAR] attend the briefing about the operation ?
[PS4DN]
Yes I did .
[JNEPSUNK]
Who conducted that briefing ?
[PS4DN]
It was Sergeant [ANONYMIZATION] .
[JNEPSUNK]
Were you given a weapon ?
[PS4DN]
Directly after the briefing all the officers that were ordered to er or authorised to be armed er went to the armoury in [ANONYMIZATION] Police Station and I was issued with a revolver .
[JNEPSUNK]
And were you given a particular role for this operation ?
[PS4DN]
My particular role erm in the operation was to carry one of the ballistic shields erm and I also erm during the briefing was informed that I would be the first person through the front door and consequent consequently to the door of the master bedroom .
[JNEPSUNK]
First of all have you ever handled a revolver of that kind before ?
[PS4DN]
Yes on several occasions .
[JNEPSUNK]
Have you ever had been a shield man before ?
[PS4DN]
Erm , not that I recollect , only in training .
[JNEPSUNK]
You 'd used a shield in training .
[PS4DN]
Yes several times .
[JNEPSUNK]
And in your mind what was the objective of the operation ?
[PS4DN]
Erm it was to hopefully apprehend a person called [ANONYMIZATION] that we believed to be er staying at that flat .
[JNEPSUNK]
And can you perhaps confirm for us that you were wearing , [UNCLEAR] tell us the gear explained by the previous witness .
[PS4DN]
Yeah , the clothes I had on was identical to that of P C [ANONYMIZATION] .
[JNEPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] every officer did , all the other officers had the same .
[PS4DN]
Everybody was dressed exactly the same .
[PS4DL]
Again you need n't ask them all that erm if Mr [ANONYMIZATION] challenges [UNCLEAR] .
[JNEPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] my Lord .
[JNEPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] some difficulty breaking the door down , is that your recollection ?
[PS4DN]
Yes .
[JNEPSUNK]
And let's move on from that and when the door was broken down what did you do ?
[PS4DN]
As soon as the , the door was cleared from the door frame er giving us sufficient room for myself to get through with the the large C-shield with myself and P C [ANONYMIZATION] ran the few paces down the hall way to the door at the end of the hall way .
[JNEPSUNK]
Now just , let's just pause there and take it in stages . At that stage had you said or shouted anything ?
[PS4DN]
No .
[JNEPSUNK]
What did you then do ?
[PS4DN]
I then as far as I can recollect , I ca n't remember whether the door was ajar or totally shut erm I would have put my hand to the handle and once knowing the door was free from its its erm lock I then pushed the door hard with the shield make , knowing that it would then bang , hopefully bang against the back wall .
[JNEPSUNK]
You say hopefully bang against the back wall , why 's that ?
[PS4DN]
Erm because it 's part of our training . Any interior door , even exterior doors we push them back as far as they possibly would go . It gives us more chance to know that there is no object or person behind it .
[JNEPSUNK]
And [ANONYMIZATION] after you 'd opened the door what did you do ?
[PS4DN]
I positioned myself in the entrance to the doorway sufficiently enough to be able to see through the er the window we have in the shield erm to see quickly into the room to see er what 's in the room and if there are any persons in the room .
[JNEPSUNK]
And what did you see ?
[PS4DN]
I saw movements from from er the far side of the room , erm which with , due to the light , erm I could distinguish as being human beings but er not immediately what sex they were but I could see enough to say that they were persons .
[JNEPSUNK]
And did you er do anything more at that stage ?
[PS4DN]
Erm I just moved probably a half a pace so P C [ANONYMIZATION] would get exactly the same view as myself .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes and then what did he or you then do ?
[PS4DN]
Erm at that stage erm P C [ANONYMIZATION] then shouted armed police , raise your hands .
[JNEPSUNK]
Pause there . H how did he shout those words ?
[PS4DN]
As loud as he could .
[JNEPSUNK]
Do you think the the occupants of the bed would have heard that ?
[PS4DN]
Most definitely .
[JNEPSUNK]
What , what did you then see happening ?
[PS4DN]
We then p positioned ourselves further into the room er P C [ANONYMIZATION] obviously was still with me behind the shield erm once we 'd got ourselves in a in a better position , as far as we were concerned , P C [ANONYMIZATION] then started talking to the people , erm who were in the bed .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes and it 's probably slightly repetitive but tell us briefly what he managed to do [UNCLEAR] .
[PS4DN]
Well first of all erm we wanted to find the light switch .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes .
[PS4DN]
Erm so we then moved back towards the doorway erm and then P C [ANONYMIZATION] requested the persons in the bed to tell him where the light switch was , which a male voice told him the approximate area where the light switch was . Erm , he found the light switch , put the light on and er .
[JNEPSUNK]
Pause there . Up until this point had you drawn your gun from its holster ?
[PS4DN]
I did n't draw my weapon at any time whilst I was in the flat .
[JNEPSUNK]
And just help us with this , if you can remember . What sort of weapon did P C [ANONYMIZATION] have ?
[PS4DN]
A revolver .
[JNEPSUNK]
Could it have been a shot gun do you think ?
[PS4DN]
No way .
[JNEPSUNK]
You got the light on , what do you then see ?
[PS4DN]
I saw a white male nearest to us , in in a double bed which was at the other end of the the the bedroom . Behind him was a black woman and I believe two small children . At that time P C [ANONYMIZATION] then was speaking to the man telling him to get out of the bed .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did the man get out of bed ?
[PS4DN]
Yes he did .
[JNEPSUNK]
And what then occurred ?
[PS4DN]
The man with his ar his hands up in the air walked towards us a few paces and then P C [ANONYMIZATION] ordered him to go down onto his knees slowly and then consequently end up on his chest with his arms outstretched .
[JNEPSUNK]
And er was the man wearing any clothes ?
[PS4DN]
No he was naked .
[JNEPSUNK]
What did P C [ANONYMIZATION] do after the man was lying outstretched on the floor ?
[PS4DN]
He then told him that he was going to go to move towards him to er to handcuff him erm this is when I f I f I believe this is the t the moment when P C [ANONYMIZATION] [UNCLEAR] P C [ANONYMIZATION] to come into the room erm .
[JNEPSUNK]
Was it apparent to you why he would call for P C [ANONYMIZATION] to come into the room ?
[PS4DN]
Yes erm it was obvious because if he 's already told the man he 's going to move forward , to handcuff him erm he will not move forward to a person with his gun er in his hand . So I knew that he was calling P C [ANONYMIZATION] into the room to give him cover . I could n't give him cover because the see shield is is quite a heavy cumbers cumbersome thing and it has two handles behind it erm and they are obviously the means of holding it up and f for directing it wherever you want so I 'm holding this all the time so he ca n't pass his weapon to me and he ca n't put his weapon in my holster because my gun was in the holster .
[JNEPSUNK]
What about just putting his weapon on the ground ?
[PS4DN]
It 's it 's never done .
[JNEPSUNK]
So did [UNCLEAR] put his gun in his holster ?
[PS4DN]
He put it in his own holster and he put the er thumb strap over t to secure it in the holster .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes a and then what ?
[PS4DN]
He then moved forward to the person on the ground and handcuffed his hands behind his back .
[JNEPSUNK]
And whilst he was doing that operation where was P C [ANONYMIZATION] ?
[PS4DN]
I ca n't exactly remember which side of of the person on the who was lying on the ground , P C [ANONYMIZATION] was but he was in a position where he was not putting himself er he was covering the person lying on the ground but he was n't covering to the point of fact that P C erm [ANONYMIZATION] would have to walk in front of his shot gun .
[JNEPSUNK]
Right . After the man was handcuffed did PC [ANONYMIZATION] [UNCLEAR] do anything else ?
[PS4DN]
Erm yes he , I believe it th th that stage was when er he said we 'll put y we 'll pus we 'll find some clothes for you mate erm , I I do recollect P C [ANONYMIZATION] going I think to the foot of the double bed or near to the base of the double bed where he found a pair of erm jeans and I do remember him checking the pockets erm and then helping or trying like put the jeans on on the man that was lying on the ground still handcuffed . He obviously had to get him up f erm sort of rolled him over er one way then the other to be of [UNCLEAR] but the er the legs of the jeans on [UNCLEAR] .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you remain in that room with your shield until you were called away by P C [ANONYMIZATION] ?
[PS4DN]
Yes .
[JNEPSUNK]
In other words , w was that an established position for you in this operation ?
[PS4DN]
That was my , that was my objective i for the master bedroom , I had no other objective unless obviously the scenario changed .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yeah . Did you see P C [ANONYMIZATION] point a gun of any description into the back of Mr [ANONYMIZATION] head ?
[PS4DN]
I saw P C [ANONYMIZATION] pointing his shot gun in the direction of the man lying on the ground .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes .
[PS4DN]
Erm I would n't say he was pointing at his head it was just in the general direction of him .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes well it 's being suggested by the plaintiff that in fact it was shoved into the back behind his right ear like like I 'm doing with my fingers .
[PS4DN]
No at no time did P C [ANONYMIZATION] get that close to the person lying on the ground .
[PS4DL]
Then how far was he away ?
[PS4DN]
He w
[PS4DL]
How far was the end of his gun away ?
[PS4DN]
It would be at least two , three , four feet at least my Lord .
[JNEPSUNK]
Whilst you were in that bedroom throughout the operation did you see any other officer point any sort of gun into the back of Mr [ANONYMIZATION] head ?
[PS4DN]
No .
[JNEPSUNK]
And just finally [UNCLEAR] [ANONYMIZATION] . Are you able to give us an estimate of the time that elapsed between breaking the door in and being called away by your team leader ?
[PS4DN]
I would estimate erm three four minutes the whole operation .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes thank you . If you could just wait there , there 'll be some more questions for you .
[JNEPSUNK]
P C as he then was , P M as he now is [ANONYMIZATION] gave evidence that he only shouted armed police once . and I do n't think you gave evidence that you shouted armed police yourself , so is it right that it was only shouted one time just immediately after the second door opened ?
[PS4DN]
As far as I reco can recollect , yes .
[JNEPSUNK]
My these they were , my recollection may be wrong , I thought it had been put to the [ANONYMIZATION] yesterday and was [UNCLEAR] that it was shouted a number of times but , you were there , it was only shouted once .
[PS4DN]
As as far as I can recollect .
[JNEPSUNK]
The only other thing that you heard Sergeant [ANONYMIZATION] say that some how at the briefing he 'd been given information that [ANONYMIZATION] was likely to be in the master bedroom . Do you recall anything being said at the briefing to that effect and if so who by ?
[PS4DN]
The only thing I can recollect from the briefing in relation to the operation and the way that was , it was erm o it was executed . We knew for definite that it was only a two bedroomed flat and that is one of the reasons we went in at the time we did , hoping that everyb e every person in that flat would be asleep .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes .
[PS4DN]
And we had two shields , we had two separate teams to go immediately to the two bedrooms which , in our er esti est estimations , that will be where any adults were more likely to be in the flat .
[JNEPSUNK]
Oh yes , you and I are entirely at one on that erm .
[PS4DN]
Well that 's , that 's well that 's all I can recollect in relation to why we did it the way we did .
[JNEPSUNK]
I 'd go a little bit further and say well it 'd be much more likely that husband and wife would be in the master bedroom with [ANONYMIZATION] in the small bedroom , but as you say er the adults or anybody indeed in the flat is likely to be in the bedrooms at that time , but Sergeant [ANONYMIZATION] you see went a bit further and said that at the briefing , somehow he got information that [ANONYMIZATION] was likely to be in the master bedroom so I understand your evidence , you certainly did n't get that impression at the brief .
[PS4DN]
Erm I I do n't recollect .
[JNEPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JNEPSUNK]
My Lord I have no re-examination , if you Lordship has any questions ?
[PS4DL]
No thank you .
[JNEPSUNK]
Thank you Mr [ANONYMIZATION] . I call er P C [ANONYMIZATION] .
[JNEPSUNK]
Would you raise this in your hand and [UNCLEAR] .
[JNEPSUNK]
I swear by Almighty God .
[PS4DP]
I swear by Almighty God .
[JNEPSUNK]
That the evidence I shall give .
[PS4DP]
That the evidence I shall give .
[JNEPSUNK]
Shall be the truth .
[PS4DP]
Shall be the truth .
[JNEPSUNK]
The whole truth .
[PS4DP]
The whole truth .
[JNEPSUNK]
And nothing but the truth .
[PS4DP]
And nothing but the truth .
[JNEPSUNK]
Mr [ANONYMIZATION] could you again give your name , rank and station currently .
[PS4DP]
Louis [ANONYMIZATION] , currently temporary Detective Constable at [ANONYMIZATION] .
[PS4DL]
Could you just spell your name so that I can get it right ?
[PS4DP]
[ANONYMIZATION] .
[PS4DL]
Yes .
[PS4DP]
[ANONYMIZATION] .
[PS4DL]
Thank you .
[JNEPSUNK]
And Mr [ANONYMIZATION] in December of nineteen eighty eight what was your rank and job ?
[PS4DP]
My job in er December nineteen ninety eighty eight was er a member of the forces operational support unit erm a firearms officer with that team an also an external instructor with er [ANONYMIZATION] police .
[JNEPSUNK]
And er when did you start as a firearms officer ?
[PS4DP]
In nineteen eighty three sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
Were you involved in the operation to enter [ANONYMIZATION] ?
[PS4DP]
Yes I was .
[JNEPSUNK]
And did you attend the briefing with Sergeant [ANONYMIZATION] ?
[PS4DP]
Yes I did yes .
[JNEPSUNK]
Were you given a weapon or weapons to carry ?
[PS4DP]
Yes I was sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
And what were those ?
[PS4DP]
They were a er revolver and er a shot gun .
[JNEPSUNK]
And is that a Smith and Weston revolver ?
[PS4DP]
It would be so yes .
[JNEPSUNK]
And the shot gun , is that a single barrelled twelve bore ?
[PS4DP]
Pump action shot gun yes .
[JNEPSUNK]
Pump action . And er Sergeant [ANONYMIZATION] mentioned that the barrel was slightly shorter than ordinary ones you buy in the shop .
[PS4DP]
That is correct sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
And is that because you 'd sawd it off or ?
[PS4DP]
Oh no , they 're actually bought from the manufacturers like that .
[JNEPSUNK]
I rather thought just wanted to contrast it with the other case and er it may not be obvious to the jury but why , why did you want a shot gun that 's a little shorter ?
[PS4DP]
Erm the shot gun is preferable in these cases , the fact that er they are used generally as a support weapon erm should we ent encounter any problems in the area that I was [UNCLEAR] covering , this was thought to be the best weapon capable of doing that job .
[JNEPSUNK]
Do you remember when coming into the flat , do you remember who entered it first ?
[PS4DP]
Into the er back bedroom .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes .
[PS4DP]
Er P C [ANONYMIZATION] .
[JNEPSUNK]
And er wh where were you in the order of entry ?
[PS4DP]
My job was er to actually open the door and then once the door was open the team would enter the flat and I together with P C [ANONYMIZATION] , would er cover the hallways inside the flat .
[JNEPSUNK]
Mr [ANONYMIZATION] were you actually [UNCLEAR] were you the cover man ?
[PS4DP]
Yes .
[JNEPSUNK]
Is it usual for the cover men to have a revolver and a shot gun ?
[PS4DP]
Yes it is sir , yes .
[JNEPSUNK]
But again , I think you 've already part answered it , why why is that that the er role for cover men , why do they get those weapons ?
[PS4DP]
Again that is the weapon that is suitable for that type of job .
[JNEPSUNK]
And you 're referring here to the shot gun ?
[PS4DP]
Yes sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
During the operation , I 'm going to come back to the door in a minute , during the operation which gun were you carrying ?
[PS4DP]
Shot gun at all times sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you at any stage draw your revolver ?
[PS4DP]
No sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
Now , going back to the incident with the door . Tell us what happened there .
[PS4DP]
Well having er carried this appliance nine flights of stairs to the ninth floor of the flat erm my objective was to gain entry into the flat onsh , sorry once the okay was given erm , again the objective was to gain entry into the flat as quickly and as quietly as possible er , by my mistake the equipment was not placed one hundred percent correctly and began to malfunction. er It started to make er a bit of a whirring noise , and a bit of a loud noise and again the objective was to gain entry quickly and quietly . I made the decision to abort using the apparatus and revert to an alternative er means .
[JNEPSUNK]
Which was ?
[PS4DP]
A sledgehammer sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you how many strikes did it take to get entry ?
[PS4DP]
At least once , no more than twice .
[JNEPSUNK]
The sophisticated technique had not worked
[PS4DP]
Yeah , exactly
[JNEPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] back to the old fashioned police technique .
[PS4DP]
Yes sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
The when the other officers attended the flat , where .
[PS4DL]
How long did it take from the time you started what was going to be the quick , silent operation until you finished and got in ?
[PS4DP]
If I just can explain first er , Sergeant [ANONYMIZATION] has already point out my Lord . The piece of equipment is hydraulic , er once the equipment is placed on it takes a total of between twelve and fifteen seconds for it to operate totally . It started to make er a bit of a horrible noise around the ten second mark and from there it was aborted immediately , erm the sledgehammer was handy and it was just a matter of seconds after that .
[JNEPSUNK]
So do we understand from that [UNCLEAR] that in the event it made only a few seconds difference , if at all ?
[PS4DP]
Yes sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
When the other officers had entered the flat [UNCLEAR] did you go ?
[PS4DP]
I would remained erm close to the doorway covering the internal hallway er effectively looking down towards the kitchen and the living room area .
[JNEPSUNK]
And did you er did you hear of anything , anyone shouting ?
[PS4DP]
Yes I did sir , yes .
[JNEPSUNK]
What did you hear ?
[PS4DP]
I quite plainly heard erm an officer , I 'm not sure who it was , er shout armed police .
[JNEPSUNK]
And you were standing in the hall way ?
[PS4DP]
Yes sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you remain in the hall way ?
[PS4DP]
Until directed to otherwise , yes sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
And who directed you to go other elsewhere ?
[PS4DP]
I heard my name being called , it may well have been Louis erm come forward and I heard it , I understood it to be P C [ANONYMIZATION] voice .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes and so where did you go ?
[PS4DP]
To the main bedroom sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
And when you went in there , were you directed or instructed to do anything ?
[PS4DP]
Er my only instruction from P C [ANONYMIZATION] was cover me .
[JNEPSUNK]
And state the jury how you covered him .
[PS4DP]
Well er by the time I arrived at the doorway to the room erm a male person was lying on the floor , spreadeagled er and my job would have been to cover him with the shot gun er to enable P C [ANONYMIZATION] to go forward and handcuff the chap .
[JNEPSUNK]
Would P C [ANONYMIZATION] come between you and the suspect ?
[PS4DP]
No sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
It 's rather obvious but why 's that ?
[PS4DP]
If erm things should start to go wrong and the chap on the floor erm was to make any movement or s sudden movement towards either P C [ANONYMIZATION] or any other piece of equipment in the room which may cause injury or damage to ourselves or himself , it would be down to me to challenge that man er and allow P C [ANONYMIZATION] to get back behind er the ballistic shield .
[JNEPSUNK]
W when you were covering P C [ANONYMIZATION] were you sitting down or standing up ?
[PS4DP]
Standing up .
[JNEPSUNK]
And can you tell us if your hands , your fists ?
[PS4DP]
I would have been more or less like that sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes and er you have n't changed in height since nineteen eighty eight ?
[PS4DP]
No sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
So your gun would have been at least four and a half to five foot off of one surface of the floor ?
[PS4DP]
Yes sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
And it 's not being too necessarily [UNCLEAR] but at any stage did you get that gun and shove it into the back of Mr [ANONYMIZATION] head ?
[PS4DP]
No definitely not sir .
[PS4DL]
Er ha what did you estimate , four and a half to five feet ?
[JNEPSUNK]
I 'm .
[PS4DL]
I think you 're a little bit much .
[JNEPSUNK]
Am I [UNCLEAR] sorry am I .
[PS4DL]
Well probably .
[JNEPSUNK]
It 's about chest height [UNCLEAR] is that what were you 're saying ?
[PS4DP]
The gun would have been
[JNEPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4DP]
Slightly below my chest [UNCLEAR] .
[PS4DL]
Yes .
[PS4DP]
And effectively three and a half to four foot off the ground .
[PS4DL]
[UNCLEAR] the front of the gun would be .
[PS4DP]
Sorry sir .
[PS4DL]
The front of the gun would be nearer to your waist [UNCLEAR] as you 're demonstrating .
[PS4DP]
The barrel of the weapon is n't that long , there 's the erm the butt is in me shoulder .
[PS4DL]
Yes .
[PS4DP]
And the barrel would 've been more or less , well [UNCLEAR] about that in height sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
Well what what do you think do if I [UNCLEAR] estimate .
[PS4DP]
About three and a half foot from the ground .
[PS4DL]
Yes so I I [UNCLEAR] three and half I think sounds better than your four and half to five but we 'll
[JNEPSUNK]
Can I also tell you as a a [UNCLEAR] did you stick that gun into the back , behind the right ear of Mr [ANONYMIZATION] ?
[PS4DP]
Most definitely not sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you see anyone else do that ?
[PS4DP]
No sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
With a shot gun .
[PS4DP]
No sir .
[PS4DL]
And how far do you estimate the gun was from the man 's head ? [UNCLEAR] distance .
[PS4DP]
I would have been standing erm about two or three foot away from him anyway sir , so that , including the distance height wise , I could have been er from the end of my weapon to his head or any part of his body there would have been a maximum of between four to five feet at least .
[JNEPSUNK]
A a and is that sort of distance and the sort of posture you adopted er consistent with your training ?
[PS4DP]
Yes sir it 's standard practice .
[JNEPSUNK]
Standard practice . How long do you think you remained guarding Mr [ANONYMIZATION] on the floor ?
[PS4DP]
Altogether sir or .
[JNEPSUNK]
Altogether yes .
[PS4DP]
A matter of a couple of minutes .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did Mr [ANONYMIZATION] remain naked throughout that time ?
[PS4DP]
No he did n't er P C [ANONYMIZATION] found some trousers , I 'm not sure where he got them from er and put them on for him .
[JNEPSUNK]
And finally I 'd like your estimate as to the length of time before , between your sledgehammer finally knocking the door down and you being called out of the flat .
[PS4DP]
No more than four minutes sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
Thank you very much , if you just wait there there will be some more questions .
[JNEPSUNK]
Getting into the flat the er hydraulic door opener did n't work so you erm , you knocked the door down with a sledgehammer .
[PS4DP]
That 's correct sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
P S [ANONYMIZATION] told the jury not three quarters of an hour ago that the automatic door opener did n't work , it was taken off re-fitted and the automatic door opener was used to open the door . I imagine you stick to your account and it follows that his account is not right .
[PS4DP]
I I was aware , when P C [ANONYMIZATION] was saying it was a slight contradiction , all I can suggest sir is that er whilst I was putting the door in P C [ANONYMIZATION] would have been controlling his troops
[JNEPSUNK]
Troops ?
[PS4DP]
er ready to enter the flat , he would n't have been paying attention to what I was doing .
[JNEPSUNK]
Sorry I I simply did n't hear the first part of that lot sir .
[PS4DP]
Sorry .
[JNEPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4DL]
What , what , what he said no doubt P C [ANONYMIZATION] was looking after his troops and he was n't paying as much attention to what I was doing as I was taking .
[JNEPSUNK]
But how far away from you was he ?
[PS4DP]
I do n't know sir , I was concentrating on the door .
[JNEPSUNK]
It was only a couple of feet or a yard was n't it ?
[PS4DP]
If you say so sir , the only thing I can suggest is that fact that er that the noise the door opener was making and the fact I opened the door very shortly afterwards , he can only assume the door opener worked .
[JNEPSUNK]
Look forgive me [ANONYMIZATION] and [ANONYMIZATION] were the first of the two troops going in through that door . They 're gon na go in through that door the second it goes down , they were n't loitering at the end of the passage , they were right by the door were n't they ?
[PS4DP]
That 's correct sir , P C [ANONYMIZATION] was behind the shield like he was told to be .
[JNEPSUNK]
And somehow missed the sledgehammer . The only other thing I have to put to you is this that I 've already put to er [ANONYMIZATION] what we allege went on in that bedroom . Are you sure that Sergeant [ANONYMIZATION] did n't take the shot gun from you and put it against er Mr [ANONYMIZATION] head ?
[PS4DP]
No sir , because that would n't allow him to do the job he was there to do .
[JNEPSUNK]
The only other thing is this . You 're in the hall you heard one shout of armed police .
[PS4DP]
Yes sir .
[JNEPSUNK]
Any other shouters along [UNCLEAR] .
[PS4DP]
Not as far as I 'm aware sir no .
[JNEPSUNK]
Great .
[JNEPSUNK]
Lord I have no re-examination .
[PS4DL]
Yep thank you .
[JNEPSUNK]
Thank you Mr [ANONYMIZATION] .
[PS4DL]
Mr [ANONYMIZATION]
[JNEPSUNK]
P C [ANONYMIZATION]
[JNEPSUNK]
I swear by Almighty God .
[PS4DR]
I swear by Almighty God .
[JNEPSUNK]
That the evidence I shall give .
[PS4DR]
That the evidence I shall give .
[JNEPSUNK]
Shall be the truth .
[PS4DR]
Shall be the truth .
[JNEPSUNK]
The whole truth .
[PS4DR]
The whole truth .
[JNEPSUNK]
And nothing but the truth .
[PS4DR]
And nothing but the truth .
[JNEPSUNK]
Like everyone else can you give your name and current rank and your station .
[PS4DR]
I 'm Gary [ANONYMIZATION] stat erm Constable Pe P C and I 'm stationed at [ANONYMIZATION] .
[JNEPSUNK]
And in December of ninety eighty eight what was your job ?
[PS4DR]
I was a member of the operational support unit .
[JNEPSUNK]
And excuse me , for how long had you been a firearms officer ?
[PS4DR]
At that time just getting on two years .
[JNEPSUNK]
Were you involved in the entry and search of [ANONYMIZATION] ?
[PS4DR]
I was .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you attend the briefing ?
[PS4DR]
Yes the briefing was held in the early hours of Monday morning .
[JNEPSUNK]
And were you issued with a weapon ?
[PS4DR]
Yes I had a er Smith and Weston revolver .
[JNEPSUNK]
Were you given a particular task or role in this job ?
[PS4DR]
Yes erm my task was , together with er P C [ANONYMIZATION] , to go into bedroom number two .
[JNEPSUNK]
And what was P C [ANONYMIZATION] role in that ?
[PS4DR]
P C [ANONYMIZATION] was er carrying a ballistic shield as already mentioned .
[JNEPSUNK]
What did you understand the prime objective of the operation
[PS4DR]
Erm to apprehend a er state convict erm Mr [ANONYMIZATION] .
[JNEPSUNK]
And what did you understand about the level of force to be used ?
[PS4DR]
Erm reasonable force to be used in the circumstances that dictated it .
[JNEPSUNK]
Do you carry one of the cards that you probably saw P C [ANONYMIZATION] refer to ?
[PS4DR]
I did at the time erm I no longer am authorised to carry .
[JNEPSUNK]
Are you in a different job sir ?
[PS4DR]
Yes that 's correct .
[JNEPSUNK]
Do you remember whereabouts in the order you were in getting into the flat ?
[PS4DR]
I was the fourth one going in erm there was P C [ANONYMIZATION] , P C [ANONYMIZATION] , P C [ANONYMIZATION] and then myself .
[JNEPSUNK]
And we 've heard how P C [ANONYMIZATION] linked up with his shield man . Can you tell us did you do the likewise or [UNCLEAR] ?
[PS4DR]
Yes it 's standard er training standard operation procedure to do that .
[JNEPSUNK]
And where did you let him go ?
[PS4DR]
We followed directly behind erm the first two officers , went down the corridor and er then straight into the second bedroom .
[JNEPSUNK]
And which of the two of you then went into that room first ?
[PS4DR]
P C [ANONYMIZATION] as he was carrying the shield and afforded all the protection to both he and I .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did either you or him shout anything ?
[PS4DR]
No b erm we did n't encounter er anyone and so there was no need to give the er warning .
[JNEPSUNK]
Was the door open or shut ?
[PS4DR]
Erm that I ca n't recollect .
[JNEPSUNK]
You [UNCLEAR] after [UNCLEAR] P C [ANONYMIZATION] protection of his shield . What did you then do ?
[PS4DR]
I followed in behind him erm the curtains were drawn , the room was in reasonable darkness and er I switched on the light .
[JNEPSUNK]
And what [UNCLEAR] did you see ?
[PS4DR]
Erm , immediately as we went in it was er a very poorly furnished room erm I 'm going in there 's a window on the far side and there was a small single bed erm which to all intents and purposes appeared un-made at the time and there was a duvet covering it
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes and switching the light on and looking around what did you do ?
[PS4DR]
Our first erm priority was to establish that there was no one in that room .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes .
[PS4DR]
As already said the bed appeared un-made
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes .
[PS4DR]
erm and as such a likely hiding place for someone to be was beneath the bed , erm I then lifted the bed with one hand , as I had my revolver drawn in the other hand , erm and then seeing no one was underneath it , I I dropped it again .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes and just [UNCLEAR] at that stage did you notice anyone else in the bedroom ?
[PS4DR]
Erm no I I did n't er it was n't until we searched
[JNEPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] on completing that did you notice anyone there , did you hear anyone in the bedroom ?
[PS4DR]
No one at all .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you look anywhere else in the bedroom ?
[PS4DR]
Yes we looked in the er wardrobe , there were a built-in wardrobes there .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you take it he was still a whether there was an armed man or any sort of man in that [UNCLEAR] ?
[PS4DR]
I had to erm until the whole of the h the premises had been searched and secured then I had to assume that there was someone in that room until the contrary was shown .
[JNEPSUNK]
And on searching it what did you think ?
[PS4DR]
That the room was empty .
[JNEPSUNK]
On discovering the room was empty , so far as you thought , what did you do ?
[PS4DR]
We then proceeded to search and secure the main living room area and the kitchen area .
[JNEPSUNK]
You said we [UNCLEAR] .
[PS4DR]
Again again Lieutenant er Constable [ANONYMIZATION] .
[JNEPSUNK]
You searched the kitchen and the living room area . Did you find anything ?
[PS4DR]
No .
[JNEPSUNK]
What did you then do ?
[PS4DR]
Erm my attention was then brought to the fact that er there was a child in bedroom er two .
[JNEPSUNK]
Was that the bedroom you looked in ?
[PS4DR]
That was the bedroom I 'd looked in .
[PS4DL]
And when you say your attention was drawn , how was it drawn ?
[PS4DR]
Er another officer in the , in the in the building told me .
[PS4DL]
Good .
[PS4DR]
Which one it was I 'm not sure .
[JNEPSUNK]
You ca n't remember ?
[PS4DR]
No .
[JNEPSUNK]
What did , on hearing that information what did you do ?
[PS4DR]
I erm actually went back to the room to see erm what condition or what the child was was doing there .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you see anything ?
[PS4DR]
Er yes I saw a small erm Afro-Caribbean child erm near the bed , whereabouts he was I I I I 'm not sure but it was near the bed .
[JNEPSUNK]
And er what condition was the child in ?
[PS4DR]
Er she was visibly er upset , she was n't hysterical , just er crying .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you say anything to her ?
[PS4DR]
No P C er [ANONYMIZATION] was erm dealing with her at the time .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did did you recognise at that [UNCLEAR] were you in court yesterday ?
[PS4DR]
Yes I was .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you recognise that young child ?
[PS4DR]
No I could n't say that that was the child , erm possibly she 's grown a bit , quite considerably .
[JNEPSUNK]
After seeing the child was upset did you do anything else ?
[PS4DR]
Erm by this time the mother er in the other room erm had emerged and I helped bring the other children into the er main main room .
[JNEPSUNK]
How did you help to do that ?
[PS4DR]
Oh I I carried er one of the children into the , into the main room .
[JNEPSUNK]
And upon putting that child in the room , what did you then do ?
[PS4DR]
Erm [UNCLEAR] the premises was by now secured so I left the premises .
[JNEPSUNK]
If you had seen the young girl who was apparently in the bed what would you have done ?
[PS4DR]
My actions would have been totally different , erm .
[JNEPSUNK]
What would you have done ?
[PS4DR]
What would I have done , I would have asked her to to er get out of the bed , walk towards me and come out into the hall way where she could have been looked after by one of the other officers , and al allow me to get on with my main task in hand .
[JNEPSUNK]
And just finally this , er P C [ANONYMIZATION] can you give us an estimate of the time between going into that flat and being called away when it was secure .
[PS4DR]
Er three to four minutes max .
[JNEPSUNK]
Thank you very much if you wait there there 'll be some more questions .
[JNEPSUNK]
We 've got a photograph of Julie taken er very shortly after the incident it 's the one that everybody saw yesterday , have a look .
[JNEPSUNK]
Definitely .
[JNEPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] the one in the bed . No it was identified by Mr [ANONYMIZATION] and er [UNCLEAR] the bed with Julie si sitting on it , taken the day after the incident .
[JNEPSUNK]
The day after .
[JNEPSUNK]
Now er she 's not here to hear me say it , ungallantly she 's Julie 's overweight now and she was pretty overweight then was n't she ?
[PS4DR]
Erm n I as I say I could n't see her the bed it was it was a duvet and .
[PS4DR]
You did have a chance to see her when you went back and she was standing by the bed with the light on . That is approximately what , exactly the size and the height and everything else that Julie was at that time , is n't it ?
[PS4DR]
Again I j only from the picture I 'd say she is , er was n't that size . I 'd no difficulty in lifting a single bed with covers underneath with one hand . From a erm a low position .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yeah I appreciate that . What I 'm going to suggest to you however is er a child of that size being covered by a duvet you really could n't have missed if you bothered to look .
[PS4DR]
Again I I showed all due diligence I could do in the situation . The bed appeared un-made and for all intents and purposes I did n't see her , had I seen her erm the situation would have been very different . I 'm very sorry and erm that this happened erm but I ca n't say any more than that . Had had I seen her it would have been totally different .
[JNEPSUNK]
I appreciate that Constable . [UNCLEAR] did mist er Constable [ANONYMIZATION] have a shield ?
[PS4DR]
He did .
[JNEPSUNK]
Let me make it absolutely clear I 'm not suggesting er on behalf of Julie [ANONYMIZATION] that there was any wickedness in your mind or anything [UNCLEAR] . What I am suggesting is you knew there was an armed man in the flat , you were worried he was under the bed and if only concern was to get that bed up and over to check he was n't there , you did n't bother to wait to get Julie off it .
[PS4DR]
No erm as I say , I never saw her in there erm I looked under the bed saw nothing was there , I just dropped it with one hand .
[JNEPSUNK]
If [ANONYMIZATION] was going to be in that room in the vicinity of the bed presumably two places he could be , under the duvet or under the bed .
[PS4DR]
Or in the cupboard .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes in the vicin I I did n't know the cupboards were near the bed , but yes , in relation to the bed those two places would it have taken a fraction of a second to strip off the duvet to check what was under it .
[PS4DR]
It would er but as I 've already said the bed looked made er totally un-slept in it looked as though it had just been made up from new and un-slept in which is why I took that course of action . Had it I seen that there was someone sleeping in the bed my course of action would have been otherwise .
[JNEPSUNK]
So by unslept in you mean very tidy [UNCLEAR] .
[PS4DR]
It was brushed down , it did n't look as though anyone had slept in it or was sleeping in it .
[JNEPSUNK]
Well [UNCLEAR] er , I put the suggestion to you that I just said [UNCLEAR] . What I suggest is you realised you could n't have failed to realise she was there , but you were in too much of a hurry to get the bed up and check [ANONYMIZATION] was n't under there .
[PS4DR]
No that is n't the case .
[JNEPSUNK]
Very good .
[JNEPSUNK]
Just one matter of information sir . He said it would have taken a fraction of a section to pull the duvet off . How long would it take you to fire a gun ?
[PS4DR]
Fraction of a second And a few weeks earlier there was a similar incident with a child in a bed er [UNCLEAR] and er all our minds were on that as well .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes and er it 's been suggested the final thing that was suggested that you realised she was there .
[PS4DR]
Erm no I did n't realise she was there .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes . Thank you very much erm I 've no further questions my Lord does your Lordship any ?
[PS4DL]
No , thank you very much .
[JNEPSUNK]
Thank you .
[JNEPSUNK]
I give two more witnesses for the defence .
[PS4DL]
Well let's get on with it you 've got one of them .
[JNEPSUNK]
I call Mr [ANONYMIZATION] please .
[JNEPSUNK]
Could you take the book in your hand and repeat after me , I swear by Almighty God .
[PS4DS]
I swear by Almighty God .
[JNEPSUNK]
That the evidence I shall give .
[PS4DS]
That the evidence I shall give .
[JNEPSUNK]
Will be the truth .
[PS4DS]
Will be the truth .
[JNEPSUNK]
The whole truth .
[PS4DS]
The whole truth .
[JNEPSUNK]
And nothing but the truth .
[PS4DS]
And nothing but the truth .
[JNEPSUNK]
Thank you .
[JNEPSUNK]
Mr [ANONYMIZATION] your current your name and current rank and your station .
[PS4DS]
I 'm Brendan [ANONYMIZATION] er Police Constable in [ANONYMIZATION] police and I 'm currently stationed at [ANONYMIZATION] police station .
[JNEPSUNK]
And in December of eighty nine what was your job ?
[PS4DS]
I was a member of the operational support unit stationed at [ANONYMIZATION] .
[JNEPSUNK]
And how long had you been a firearms officer ?
[PS4DS]
Eighteen months .
[JNEPSUNK]
And it [UNCLEAR] can you confirm you went to , through the sort of training described by Sergeant [ANONYMIZATION] ?
[PS4DS]
Yes exactly the same .
[JNEPSUNK]
And did you attend a briefing in connection with a search on [ANONYMIZATION] ?
[PS4DS]
Yes I attended the briefing .
[JNEPSUNK]
And what time of the day was that ?
[PS4DS]
Er quarter past five in the morning .
[JNEPSUNK]
And were you issued after that brief briefing with a weapon ?
[PS4DS]
I was issued after the immediately after the briefing I was issued with two weapons a revolver and a shot gun .
[JNEPSUNK]
And were you issued with any other equipment ?
[PS4DS]
Immediately prior to the entry of the house the plans slightly changed and I was issued with the see shield and my shot gun was given to one of the other officers .
[JNEPSUNK]
I it is actually , perhaps rather obvious you ca n't carry two guns and a shield .
[PS4DS]
That 's right and I 've carried the see shield on operations before .
[JNEPSUNK]
You 'd done you 'd done it before ?
[PS4DS]
Yes .
[JNEPSUNK]
So again did you [UNCLEAR] shield man
[PS4DS]
Yes .
[JNEPSUNK]
And you had one gun being a revolver .
[PS4DS]
The revolver which was holstered with the strap over it .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you at any stage take the revolver out of the holster ?
[PS4DS]
No .
[JNEPSUNK]
And who was your partner in your group ?
[PS4DS]
P C [ANONYMIZATION]
[JNEPSUNK]
What do you understand P C [ANONYMIZATION] about the use of force in these sort of operations ?
[PS4DS]
To use such force that is reasonable in the circumstances .
[JNEPSUNK]
Can you remember where you were in the order of those people entering the flat ?
[PS4DS]
Third .
[JNEPSUNK]
And where did you go ?
[PS4DS]
Having followed P C [ANONYMIZATION] and P C [ANONYMIZATION] as he was at that time through the door , I went immediately to the bedroom on the right hand side , the second bedroom .
[JNEPSUNK]
And how close behind you was P C [ANONYMIZATION] ?
[PS4DS]
Actually touching .
[JNEPSUNK]
He he could n't remember , can you remember whether the door was open or closed ?
[PS4DS]
I think it was closed .
[JNEPSUNK]
And what did you do ?
[PS4DS]
Pushed it open as hard as I could .
[JNEPSUNK]
And again is it , for the jury , was it the same reason as P C [ANONYMIZATION] did it ?
[PS4DS]
Exactly the same to make sure there 's nobody behind it and if there is they would be quickly located .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you look into the room ?
[PS4DS]
I shuffled into the room got out of the doorway and the light was turned on , I ca n't remember with whether I turned it on or whether P C [ANONYMIZATION] turned it on .
[JNEPSUNK]
Throughout this period were you looking round your shield or through the window ?
[PS4DS]
Through the window do n't look round the shield .
[JNEPSUNK]
And did you see anything through that ?
[PS4DS]
No .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you look at the bed ?
[PS4DS]
Yes I was looking
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you see
[PS4DS]
everywhere that I could .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you see anyone in the bed ?
[PS4DS]
No .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did P C [ANONYMIZATION] then do anything ?
[PS4DS]
P C [ANONYMIZATION] and myself went round to the side of the bed and P C [ANONYMIZATION] lifted up the bed with one hand carrying the gun in his other hand .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you hear anything any human sounds at that stage ?
[PS4DS]
No .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you notice anything in the bed at that stage ?
[PS4DS]
No .
[JNEPSUNK]
After P C [ANONYMIZATION] had done that , what did you do ?
[PS4DS]
We then er continued the search of the cupboards went immediately from there across the hall way into the lounge , searched the lounge through the lounge into the kitchen searched the kitchen , through the kitchen into the bathroom . searched the bathroom and then made my way to the door , the exit door .
[JNEPSUNK]
Ye a an after you 'd done that did you remain at the exit door or did you come back into the [UNCLEAR] ?
[PS4DS]
I was just going to the exit door when I saw the young girl s standing at the second bedroom , crying .
[JNEPSUNK]
And when you saw her what did you think ?
[PS4DS]
I di I did n't know what to think . I did n't know where she 'd come from , I did n't know whether sh come from that room or whether she 'd come from the the main bedroom .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you say anything to her ?
[PS4DS]
Yeah I put the shield up against the wall because I knew then that the whole house had been cleared and er bent down and asked her if she was alright .
[JNEPSUNK]
Aha , did she say anything to you ?
[PS4DS]
She said she was alright .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did she look upset ?
[PS4DS]
Oh she she was definitely upset .
[JNEPSUNK]
And did you do anything more with her then ?
[PS4DS]
No .
[JNEPSUNK]
Where did you go after speaking to the little girl ?
[PS4DS]
Left the house , left the flat .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes er , P C [ANONYMIZATION] if you could just wait there there may be some more questions .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes [UNCLEAR] you were coming into a small bedroom with a
[PS4DS]
Yes
[JNEPSUNK]
shield . That reaches down to the floor as I understand it .
[PS4DS]
Not quite my feet just above my feet obviously I 've I 've got to move and it it 's more of a shuffling a quick shuffling movement .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes erm
[PS4DS]
It is quite heavy .
[JNEPSUNK]
Did you stop , do you stop just inside the door , did you with the shield ?
[PS4DS]
I would have moved slightly to the right , I w I was the first objective while you 're looking is to get out of the door .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes and at the same time your colleague er Constable [ANONYMIZATION] is also sheltering behind the shield .
[PS4DS]
Yes .
[JNEPSUNK]
And what you can see is a bed ?
[PS4DS]
Yes .
[JNEPSUNK]
The other side of the room . Presumably with room for somebody to hide underneath it .
[PS4DS]
Yes .
[JNEPSUNK]
Now it must have been must n't it , a possibility , if [UNCLEAR] been there at all , that he was hiding under that bed ?
[PS4DS]
Yes .
[JNEPSUNK]
Why did then , did n't both you and your colleague advance behind the shield to the bed . Why did he rather walk entirely unprotected , apart from the body armour .
[PS4DS]
No no [UNCLEAR] . It 's not , it 's not just one movement . You go in , get away from the door first , then both of us go round .
[JNEPSUNK]
But you did n't both go to the bed with the shield , that 's my point . You pretty much stayed on the [UNCLEAR] , he advanced on the bed .
[PS4DS]
Well I 'm I 'm sorry but I 'm not a lot of use to him if I let him just walk away from the shield . I go with him , he goes with me .
[JNEPSUNK]
Well does it follow then that both of you went over to the bed , that 's what I 'm getting at .
[PS4DS]
Yes .
[JNEPSUNK]
So both of you were standing [UNCLEAR]
[PS4DS]
But then [UNCLEAR] at some stage he had to move out from behind me to get the bed up .
[JNEPSUNK]
Yes . Now that 's the stage that I want to get to . Whereabouts in relation to , w the bed was up against the wall was n't it ?
[PS4DS]
No I did n't think it was .
[JNEPSUNK]
Was it just free standing in the middle of the room or was it against the wall ?
[PS4DS]
As far as I can recall it was further away from the wall , there was a space for somebody to walk between the wall and the bed , it 's not as shown in that photograph .
[JNEPSUNK]
So
[PS4DS]
there is more room between
[JNEPSUNK]
could you walk all the way round it or [UNCLEAR] ?
[PS4DS]
No it the the head of the bed was up against the far wall the as you look in the room on the right .
[JNEPSUNK]
So you could have been standing , you with your shield , at this point with Constable [ANONYMIZATION] with you , either on one side of the bed or at the bottom of the bed or on the other side of the bed , where were you in fact standing ?
[PS4DS]
Nearer the foot of the bed .
[JNEPSUNK]
Foot of the bed , nearer sorry , nearer the foot of the , at the side but near to the foot or does it [UNCLEAR] ?
[PS4DS]
All I can say is in the region of the foot of the bed .
[JNEPSUNK]
You and Mr [ANONYMIZATION] . He then reaches out picks up the foot of the bed as he said and lifts it .
[PS4DS]
I ca n't remember if it was the foot of the bed or the side of the bed .
[JNEPSUNK]
One or the other .
[PS4DS]
Must have been .
[JNEPSUNK]
At that point were both of you behind the shield or had he stepped out from behind [UNCLEAR] ?
[PS4DS]
He would have had to have reached out .
[JNEPSUNK]
So he well I knew he 'd have to reach out
[PS4DS]
Yeah .
[JNEPSUNK]
but that 's only putting his hand out without being brutal about it , that 's not as dangerous as being coming out entirely from behind the shield . Which did he do , [UNCLEAR] ?
[PS4DS]
I ca n't I ca n't remember .
[JNEPSUNK]
And the bed was tipped .
[PS4DS]
Yes and then replaced on its legs .
[JNEPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] Constable [ANONYMIZATION] when he was giving evidence it only takes a second to fire a gun was n't that the reason that the bed was tipped because it had to be checked quickly that [ANONYMIZATION] was n't underneath otherwise Constable [ANONYMIZATION] may might have got shot .
[PS4DS]
No .
[JNEPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4DS]
What you 've got to rea no what you got to realise is the most obvious place for somebody would be on the bed but we could n't see anybody on the bed so the only other place is under the bed .
[JNEPSUNK]
Well you say the most obvious place would be on the bed , if I may respectfully agree with you , also there actually was a rather fat eleven year old girl on the bed . That 's her evidence .
[PS4DS]
I know that now .
[JNEPSUNK]
But the duvet was n't stripped off .
[PS4DS]
No .
[JNEPSUNK]
Even though that was as you put it , the obvious place for [UNCLEAR] .
[PS4DS]
They say a fraction of a second , we we do n't have fractions of seconds to play about with .
[JNEPSUNK]
No [UNCLEAR] .
[JNEPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] re-examination of this witness .
[PS4DL]
No thank you very much . Now I believe you 've got one more witness have you .
[JNEPSUNK]
One more my Lord .
[PS4DL]
But I 'm afraid that I must ride , because I 'm not [UNCLEAR] at my next appointment so . And the other witness is
[JNEPSUNK]
W was the W P C [ANONYMIZATION] came in after the armed officers went in .
[PS4DL]
I see yes . Well we 'll hear her and then we 'll complete the evidence at half past ten in the morning .
[JNEPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4DL]
The er jury are going to be given copies of these collator cards are they ?
[JNEPSUNK]
My Lord [UNCLEAR] certainly that 's my proposition unless my learned friend has any objection on that .
[PS4DL]
No seeing as though they 've been produced I 've said I all in favour of the jury seeing anything that 's referred to and then there , there 's no mystery about it then . They can have a look at the originals if they like as well .