[PS4SJ]
Your eagle eyes will have noticed that there is someone sitting in this room with a tape recorder , and erm , it 's it 's , should be quite interesting for you to know what he is doing . His name 's Jim . And he 's
WMN: JT2_32
Dialogue: JT2
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
Hello Jim .
[PS4SJ]
Alright .
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SK]
[UNCLEAR] being friendly .
[PS4SJ]
and he is , he is recording you , erm , [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
He 's recording you because there is a project under way which is known as the British National Corpus . Which may say , seem to you , something to do with dead bodies , but it 's not .
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
Erm , but it is a body , it 's corpus as in body and and what the British National Corpus is doing , is putting together a massive amount of spoken English , erm , from all sorts of different contexts , and one of the contexts which they want spoken English from is an educational context , and so they are having to record you people , as they 've been recording some other people erm , in other educational institutions around the country and so on . The idea is , is not to make any judgements about you people , for instance , the whole thing is totally anonymous but it 's to hear the state of the language as it is , I I assume , at the moment , and what 's going to happen is , they 're collecting a massive quantity of erm , of words . They are transcribing it all , it runs into millions , but I can never remember how many millions . They 're transcribing it all , there are people going to transcribe all of this , write it all out , attach grammatical tags to us , and this body of work is going to be , t available to students of language , and so on . So erm , you are not to be , in any way , I mean , I 'm going to talk at you anyway , most of the afternoon unfortunately , but I do want you to respond .
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
But do n't be inhibited by , and do n't perform for , the microphone that 's there , because that 's that 's not
[PS4SK]
so just forget it 's there .
[PS4SJ]
What it 's about . What ?
[PS4SK]
Just totally forget it 's there , right ?
[PS4SJ]
Yes .
[PS4SK]
Yes .
[PS4SJ]
But that does n't mean turn on a display of the kind of language that you would n't normally use
[JT2PSUNK]
Mm .
[PS4SJ]
when you 're , forgetting it 's there .
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
Yes . Right , what I want to work on today , is [UNCLEAR] and [UNCLEAR] [ANONYMIZATION] 's reminded me , that incidentally that that essay which you 're due to write in class on the Monday we come back after half term , there is n't a Monday we come back after half term .
[JT2PSUNK]
Brilliant .
[PS4SJ]
Students are n't in on that Monday . So it will have to be in for Thursday of that week , so you 've got another couple of days in that first week back . Right , I want to pick up on I 've started looking at your tests , the history of language ones and I 've actually marked only the section where you actually re-wrote the er , early modern English extract , and I want to pick up on that instantly , and talk about that and the ways you you , the way you can go around , no I 'm not gon na give you that . The way you can treat this task . The editorial task , I might tell you , is half of one of your exam papers . That is it 's worth half the marks on one of your three papers . So it is worth one sixth of your overall mark for this subject . Is the way you go about a task exactly the same as that one I gave you the other day . But it wo n't necessarily be , erm , an a some language taken from a historical period . There have been other examples used , though not many that are n't historical , but there have been , for instance , there was an account of a road accident , I 'll give most of these to you as exercises . An account of a road accident written by someone who 's learning English , and had a very limited vocabulary on it . Erm , so the editorial task each each time is exactly the same , you had to rewrite the extract in modern standard English , and then comment on any differences , and explain why those differences occurred , but they are quite often , erm , eighteenth or nineteenth century extracts from books , descriptions of things , erm , dialect , descriptions of of events , and things like that , and last year 's one , on , the one of last year 's paper was er , a middle English one . It was a letter written by er erm , a sixteenth century woman to her husband , and again it had [UNCLEAR] commenting on the language used . So it 's it 's vital that you get this exercise right and it , and you must n't just think of it as part of the study of History of Language , it 's not , it 's , it 's a er a definite part of your course . Which will be coming up whatever form of language is used . I will give you this to look at . Now the major problem that came up the other day was that , I thought I had given you a very easy extract to translate into modern English , and it turned out not to be such an easy extract , obviously . Erm , it was n't [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
the first sentence did n't give you any problems whatsoever , er , well , very few people , but the problems came after that . You will need some paper . At the bottom of the page I had suggested how you should go about this exercise throw paper around the floor , that 's all the paper there is here , so .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
okay , do n't take too much , and that is to first make a literal translation and then , to try and put it into idiomatic English . Now if you do n't know these terms , I 'm sure you have come across them really
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Literal . What , well , well you define for me , what 's a literal translation ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Word for word .
[PS4SJ]
Word for word . Yes . Why might that not work as a , as a idiomatic translation . What does idiomatic mean ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Making sense [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
Ideally [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
Making sense in sentence [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Idiomatic means more than just making sense in English .
[JT2PSUNK]
Correct word order .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] grammatic use of
[PS4SJ]
Mm , grammatic [UNCLEAR] yes . It also means using the kinds of erm , vocabulary and phraseology which are normally used . It in in in every day usage . Right so , a literal translation might turn out to be very stiff and stilted , and not the way most people would use language . So , the there there is a distinction in terms there , you 've got to do a literal translation first . Because if you do n't , if do n't do a word by word translation , as some of you did , you , you may miss the meaning of certain words , and that might totally alter your perception of what 's being said , and then what you should , wh when you 've done a literal translation , you will have a very stiff erm , u unusual version of it , written in modern English vocabulary but you 'll find that word ordering and things like that wo n't be appropriate , and sometimes the vocabulary are n't the kind of words that would normally be used now . Therefore you will need to to rewrite that in a way which mean something to modern erm , readers . So , can we just look at the extract that was given , what language would it have been translated from , incidentally ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Old English .
[JT2PSUNK]
Middle English .
[JT2PSUNK]
Early modern .
[PS4SJ]
Use your brain , look at , look at what the extract is drawn from . Something called De Proprietibus Rerum Bartolomeus Anglicus .
[JT2PSUNK]
Latin .
[PS4SJ]
From Latin , yes . Erm , so it 's it 's in itself is translation into English of some earlier writing . But the important thing as far as we were concerned , as is that the translation was done by John de Trevisa in thirteen ninety-eight , and some of you like Sam , were able to quote the middle English period and place thirteen ninety-eight towards the end of the middle English period , it 's really on the verge of early modern English . Other people , for who , anything which is n't modern , is old English , claimed that it was old English . No , nobody in this room did . Okay , word for word . Give me modern words through the first line , please , Darren .
[PS4SL]
Among all flowers er , of the world , the flower of the rose is erm [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Try and say it .
[PS4SL]
Which one .
[PS4SJ]
Say that next word . Finish the sentence . The flower of the rose is
[PS4SL]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Right .
[PS4SL]
And [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
And what ?
[PS4SL]
[UNCLEAR] Beareth .
[PS4SJ]
Beareth , yeah .
[PS4SL]
Ye prize .
[PS4SJ]
Ye prize . Yes , so any words here that that look unpronounceable , turn out when you say them , to be modern , to be exactly the same as modern words , except that of course , you do n't have an f ending , as you know . Th What 's happened is that this spelling , th this reversal of spelling has occurred in English , as some of you obviously do n't seem to know and your modern English versions you speak [UNCLEAR] used it . Erm , and beareth , there , what does beareth mean ? Amelia ? To bear something , it beareth the prize . The rose beareth the prize . Who knows that to bear means ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Shows .
[PS4SJ]
Mm .
[JT2PSUNK]
Shows .
[PS4SJ]
No , that 's that 's bare as in B A R E I suppose . [UNCLEAR] exhibitionism .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
Oh , it has .
[JT2PSUNK]
No , it has n't .
[JT2PSUNK]
Holds [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Mm , yeah al almost holds so it 's obviously a word which has now become erm , obsolete for you people . To bear something , means to to carry it .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Yeah , did you ? Well you did n't say it very loudly [UNCLEAR] I do n't know , interesting . Okay , the next sentence , erm , Tanya translate .
[PS4SM]
Erm , I just read it or
[PS4SJ]
Yeah , [UNCLEAR] , try try and erm , put it into literal translation , to modern English .
[PS4SM]
Erm , . Erm , through its virtues and sweet smell .
[PS4SJ]
No , no , sorry . Do it word for word . We 'll do that later .
[PS4SM]
Oh , erm , because of virtues and sweet smelling savour .
[PS4SJ]
Right , and by cause I think , by cause is is is literally what 's said there , but of course , yes that that we now read that as because . Virtues , and sweet , sweeter savour . Now again , is the word savour lost ?
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
What 's savour refer to ?
[PS4SM]
To
[PS4SJ]
If something 's savoury , what sense are you , are you using it .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] taste .
[PS4SJ]
Taste , yeah . Savour literally means taste .
[JT2PSUNK]
Biscuits are savoury .
[JT2PSUNK]
So are crisps .
[PS4SJ]
Indeed , yes . So it literally means taste in this case . Virtues , I mean you know what virtues are , although again people try to smell it , smell it , spell it that way . It 's actually is spelt in modern English with an i , and virtue in this sense , in what what sense would it mean . It 's the cause , ah , sorry , it 's the cause , it 's the rose has virtues . What sense of the word virtue are we er using this , we 're not saying it 's virtuous and it behaves well . What are we saying ?
[PS4SM]
That it 's good [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Good , goodness , yeah , beneficial , qualities . Savour erm , the problem , why , why , I do n't think any of you grasped the fact that we 're talking there about savour , is that erm , you probably do n't realise that historically , the rose was much eaten . Ro rose petals erm , were eaten , in fact , there was a thriving erm , industry near Paris for drying rose petals which were used in medicine , and also were used erm , to crystallise and to they were put in cakes and things like that . And in fact , have you ever eaten Turkish Delight ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Mm .
[JT2PSUNK]
Yes .
[PS4SJ]
That the the flavour in Turkish Delight is rose water , that 's that 's actual essence of rose petals . And rose water , and rose was used a lot in cooking er , until , until quite recently , and it can still be . Right the next sentence , erm Zakhia ?
[PS4SN]
Yes .
[PS4SJ]
Do a literal
[PS4SN]
A literal ?
[PS4SJ]
Yeah .
[PS4SN]
Full by fairness , they feed the sight and place the smell by odour the touch by soft handling .
[PS4SJ]
Okay , go back on that . Place is the interesting one there . Say the word .
[PS4SN]
Placeth .
[PS4SJ]
Plaseth , plaseth , by fairness they feed the sight and plaseth the smell . Plaseth the smell .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Plaseth .
[JT2PSUNK]
Place this place .
[PS4SJ]
You 're obviously not going to get it , are you , it 's another vowel change . Erm
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
It 's , it 's a [UNCLEAR] yeah , it 's a vowel , it 's a vowel change and it 's simply please , pleaseth . They please , I thought in context you would have got that . A fairness they feed the sight , and pleaseth the smell by odour .
[JT2PSUNK]
Mm .
[PS4SJ]
Like their odour pleases the the sense of smell . No ? The touch by soft handling . Then I , I think that the next sentence is actually the hardest one in literal terms , but , word for word is easy enough . Erm , Sam , could you try that , the last sentence .
[PS4SP]
What do I have to do , just say it
[PS4SJ]
Say it in in modern English , word for word .
[PS4SP]
And , would be it 's supposed to withstand .
[PS4SJ]
Withstand , yeah .
[PS4SP]
And ,
[PS4SJ]
and remember I gave you this word , that was suc succours
[PS4SP]
Succours .
[PS4SJ]
Succours .
[PS4SP]
[UNCLEAR] virtues against many illnesses fr and evils .
[PS4SJ]
Right . Against many , yes [UNCLEAR] said illnesses and evils . So in literal terms you have , you 've given me , among all flowers of the world , the flower of the rose is chief and beareth the prize , or and bears the prize , because obviously the erm , suffix for the third person singular is going to be , you 're going to use the modern version . And by cause of virtues or , and , because of virtues and sweet smell and savour . For by fairness they feed the sight and pleaseth the smell by odour , the touch of soft handling , and withstandeth [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
succoureth by virtue , and and , sorry , withstands and succours by virtue against many sicknesses and evils . The problems that that you raise , now some of you ob obviously , did n't recognise some of those words , like please , pleases , I do n't think anyone recognised , and full meaning of things like savour , but what the the problem was the changes in word order . Look at the second sentence , no , the third sentence . For by fairness they feed the sight and pleaseth the smell by odour , the touch by soft handling . What 's it actually saying ? Paul , you looked up at the [UNCLEAR] times . No , do n't look at that , Elliott .
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
Look at the , at the thing at the top . What 's fairness . What 's
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] sweet smells
[PS4SJ]
Yeah , well that 's just , that 's just two words th it 's actually saying three different things . What does fairness mean in this case ?
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Oh , we 've caught another one , have n't we ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Beauty .
[PS4SJ]
What 's this . Beauty , yes . Beauty , fair , fair to be fairness to look at . For by , for by beauty they feed the sight and pleaseth the smell by odour , the touch by soft handling . See if you can paraphrase that , into , into modern standard English . [UNCLEAR] runs down to these versions underneath .
[JT2PSUNK]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
and so on . I should n't have given it to you .
[JT2PSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS4SJ]
That 's why I was n't going to hand this out right at the beginning , because I wanted to make you work at it a bit more , er , then you can , when you 've got those two versions written underneath . It 's it 's actually a very simple statement that 's been made in that sentence . But , by their beauty they feed the sight , yeah . They please , they please the smell by odour , so their odour pleases the sense of smell . Now the thing is we , we can refer to sight and touch and hearing , but we do n't refer to the sense of smell just as smell , in modern English . They do n't , you do n't say er , this this pleases my smell , because my smell actually has a totally different meaning . Erm , but that 's the meaning in which it it 's meant here , so by fairness they feed the sight , by their odour they please the sense of smell , and the softness of them , the the softness to touch , pleases the touch , pleases the sense of touch . You What some you were erm , erm , put off by there , was the fact that these senses , I referred to just by their noun , like smell and touch , and you did n't recognise there , was reference to to the whole sense . The last sentence is is the most difficult one , because of this word withstand , which of course is is very rarely used in this sense now . But you can have the sense of withstand as something , you know , people , people withstanding an onslaught . In fact , it 's used by all commentators , who often use very erm , old fashioned erm , vocabulary , [UNCLEAR] , withstanding the onslaught of the opposing team , and things like that . Well , you would n't actually use the that kind of vocabulary in every day life . Erm , and it means to , standing up against , erm , rejecting , oh no , I do n't think rejecting is is [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
But , but I mean I suppose if we take sense of standing up against , it 's saying , and it stands up against , and it withstands against many sicknesses and evils and inserted into the middle of that , and succoureth it by virtue , so it helps by its goodness to withstand sicknesses and evils . So the process that you have to carry out , then is to find a way of transferring your literal translation once you 've worked out word for word what is being said , into terms which mean something to a modern reader or , listener . But the other important element is that you have to reflect the style of the original , look at the notes I 've made at the bottom of the page , please . So , you 're , you 're trying to find something which is in the language of the modern speaker . But also which reflects the style of the original , and that means the for instance in the second sentence , no , third sentence , for by fairness they feed the sight and pleaseth the smell by odour and touch by self han , by soft handling . You actually have a sense of style , there are three different sections to that description and you have , and there is actually some repetition involved erm , by by starting each , by by this reference to the sight , the smell , the touch , and you have to , and and that 's the kind of sty stylistic element that you have to incorporate into your version and I put a note at the bottom too , that there are times when you ca n't totally update this kind of work . For instance then , the very last point being made up in that rose thing , is , it says that it protects against sicknesses and evils . Now obviously you can translate the idea of something being a preventative about illness or sickness , but it 's very difficult to suggest in idiomatic modern English that roses can be a protection against evils , because you really , we really do n't have that kind of concept , normally now , although there are many uses of erm , groups of people who might retain such a concept , and if something like that arises , you obviously ca n't make it idiomatic , because there 's just no way it 's going to work idiomatically in English . Okay , look underneath , the , oh sorry , in between , underneath , underneath the box at the top . The first version there , is one that I did before I even looked at your , at at any of the homeworks , and I got myself into some awkwardness of trying to translate virtues , and ended up with beneficial properties , erm , which is hardly perhaps very idiomatic and the one underneath that is Jemma 's and the absent writer [UNCLEAR] not that she could be embarrassed because she 's not here , erm , and she 's actually simplified more than I have , by half a line , you 'll understand . Have a look at that , I mean , it would have been better if Jemma was here , because I do n't want to criticise , I mean , I used Jemma 's because it was actually probably the best one that was done by anyone in the group . Are there any ways in which you think that it does or does not work particularly well , looking at hers , mine 's , mine 's more boring , hers , she actually departs from the , from the text more . Compare the the text at the beginning with hers , the the the Middle English text with hers , and tell me , is there anything which she has caught well , or anything which she has missed out , or look at the first sentence , is she right there ?
[JT2PSUNK]
She missed out the beareth the prize [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Right , so there 's , there 's there 's one actual reference gone .
[JT2PSUNK]
She does n't repeat flowers .
[PS4SJ]
No , and I did n't do that until I read someone Niall 's and he had repeated flowers and I thought why has he repeated flowers and realised that in fact that it is necessary . Yeah , because the point that 's being made is that it 's only the flower of the rose which has all these properties , it 's not the whole bush itself , presumably . What about this second sentence ? Are you happy with that ? Ben ? Why ?
[PS4SR]
No .
[PS4SJ]
Why , you mean , you mean you 're not happy with it , why ?
[PS4SR]
I do n't know
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] clue .
[PS4SR]
I was , I was n't [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Oh , right .
[PS4SR]
It does n't in the middle English bit , it 's does n't say that it 's a strong smell .
[PS4SJ]
Right , that 's true .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Yeah , it does n't say it was a strong smell , no . Well , else does n't , wh wh what else does it say in that sentence . Look are you , are you looking second sentence , Jemma 's second sentence : This is due to a strong and sweet smell , in middle English it says , by cause of virtues and sweet smell and savour .
[JT2PSUNK]
It says something about taste .
[PS4SJ]
So it 's the taste thing , and and also the virtues element is , has gone , has n't it . It actually , that actually was n't the sentence I made , I ca n't count , it was actually the next sentence I wanted you to look at . Because this is the one I want you to to be particularly be conscious of . What about her version of the third sentence : It 's beautiful to look at , wonderful to smell , as well as being extremely soft to touch .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Anthony ? What ?
[PS4SS]
I thought that was pretty good .
[PS4SJ]
It 's pretty good , it 's pretty good in conveying , the meaning . In what way that , is n't it pretty good ? Tanya ?
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
You 're happy with it .
[JT2PSUNK]
He really loves it , it 's [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
Elliot .
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
The third sentence it 's beautiful to look at etc comment on Jemma 's version .
[JT2PSUNK]
Well it 's good , cos er , in the old English one . It 's [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
It 's not old English .
[JT2PSUNK]
Sorry , the middle English one . It 's er , [UNCLEAR] three sections , it 's er , that 's sentences as well , it 's got like , you know , using commas and er .
[JT2PSUNK]
The same sentence structures .
[JT2PSUNK]
Yeah , that 's it .
[PS4SJ]
Er , right , so stylistically she has erm , she 's picked up , and she 's actually picked up the patterning as well of that , whereas in the middle English one , it was , th the sight , the odour , the touch , no , it was the smell , the touch , she has used an infini an infinitive of a verb , which gets away from the problem , that we do n't use nouns for these things . To look at , to smell , to touch , so that she 's , she 's erm , actually found a way of getting the same patterning . Erm , but in fact , she 's she 's missed the third sentence and , where she said that the rose has withstood many sicknesses and evils , erm , whereas in fact , what it says is it withstands and succours against sicknesses and evils , which is a totally different element .
[JT2PSUNK]
We ca n't put .
[PS4SJ]
Right , can you put that away somewhere , that sheet . No this
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] Put that away .
[PS4SJ]
No . Yes , I 'm being indecisive . Yes , you do n't need it for what we 're going to do now
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Oh , this is actually from varieties , this extract [UNCLEAR] and erm , I 'm giving it to you , cos [UNCLEAR] varieties here , but because the other element which we have n't considered is the actual appearance on the page of erm , middle English well this is actually early modern English . But it 's still right on that , on that turning point , it 's a hundred and fifty years after the John Trevisa theme that we just looked at . But the language is very similar , erm , although it 's into the early modern English period . Have a quick erm , read through it , please , out loud , everybody , just quietly to yourselves , but read it out loud , because it makes much more sense , as they sound .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Okay , okay , you 've got struck [UNCLEAR] once you get yourself round all the letter forms and so on . Does anybody know roman numerals ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS4SJ]
Yes ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Yes .
[PS4SJ]
So what chapter is it at the top ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Ten .
[JT2PSUNK]
Ten .
[JT2PSUNK]
Oh , no , eight .
[JT2PSUNK]
Eight .
[PS4SJ]
Eight , right . Erm , line line four and five , how many days .
[JT2PSUNK]
Six .
[PS4SJ]
This is a nice mixture . A hundred and
[JT2PSUNK]
Something [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
Fifty .
[JT2PSUNK]
Fifty .
[PS4SJ]
Fifty . A hundred and fifty days . Erm , what about line , oh I see , it 's not line a hundred , the lines are numbered in an odd way . Four , erm , the , on this line marked five , How
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
The something , the date .
[JT2PSUNK]
The seventeenth .
[PS4SJ]
Seventeenth day of the
[JT2PSUNK]
Seventh month .
[PS4SJ]
Seventh month . [UNCLEAR] until the tenth month and after the end of ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Fifty .
[JT2PSUNK]
Sixty days .
[JT2PSUNK]
It 's forty .
[JT2PSUNK]
Sixty .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Forty , forty , yeah . Cos the x is before the [UNCLEAR] okay .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
Forty days .
[PS4SJ]
So does everybo , does everybody know their roman numerals ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Yeah .
[JT2PSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS4SJ]
Good . In that case , erm , Niall would you read out the first er paragraph there .
[PS4ST]
God remembered Noah and all [UNCLEAR] is that an f
[PS4SJ]
No .
[PS4ST]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Can anyone tell him ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Beasts
[JT2PSUNK]
Beasts .
[PS4SJ]
Beasts . Right [UNCLEAR] yes .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4ST]
cattle were with him in the Ark , and God made the wind blow , is it upon , upon the earth and waters [UNCLEAR] and the fountains [UNCLEAR] the windows of heavens were opened .
[PS4SJ]
No , it does n't say opened . It 's that same letter form all the time . The one that looks like an f .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
No .
[PS4ST]
And the [UNCLEAR] of heaven was within [UNCLEAR] and the waters returned to the earth and abated after the end of a hundred and fifty days .
[PS4SJ]
A hundred and fifty days . Okay . Erm , let's just read to the end , erm , [UNCLEAR] can I pounce on , erm , Matthew will you read to the end .
[JT2PSUNK]
With the Ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat , the seventeenth day of the seventh month and the waters went away and decreased until the tenth month and the first day of the tenth month , the tops of the mountains appeared , and after the end of forty days , Noah opened the window of the Ark , which he had made and sent forth a raven which went out , ever going and coming again until the waters were dried up upon the earth .
[PS4SJ]
Right they dried up upon the earth .
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
Right , they 're are obviously some unusual letter forms there . Such as what ,
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Erm , unusual spellings , sorry ?
[JT2PSUNK]
The f t for
[PS4SJ]
The f , yeah the f s [ANONYMIZATION] well I 'll come back to that . What else .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Sorry , the u v interchange you 've got that one yes .
[JT2PSUNK]
The y and i ,
[PS4SJ]
The y and i , I 'm sure that is , yes , y and i interchange . Anything else .
[JT2PSUNK]
e suffix .
[PS4SJ]
What suffix ?
[JT2PSUNK]
The e suffix .
[PS4SJ]
The e suffix is used indeed it is , you 'll [UNCLEAR] an example [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Sorry , I ca n't hear you , what ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Listen .
[PS4SJ]
I am listening , but you mutter .
[JT2PSUNK]
Like , it 's got upon , but it has n't got the n on the end .
[PS4SJ]
Right . But what has it got .
[JT2PSUNK]
A little thing above [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Yeah , it 's got a little mark above the , above the vowel sound . What else in their performance are unusual , [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
They 've got double p 's everywhere , where where in , today , we 've put [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
That 's the spelling is n't it , that 's the spelling thing rather than actual letter forms . So you 've done , you got that f and and f the the the these f's and s's , you 've done the u v's where the letters are actually changed . The i y one is is more a spelling convention than actual letter forms . You 've got the use of things like upon and , there was something or other else .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Heaven , heaven , spelt like that , and so on , so the final n sound is missing . What else have you said , I 've forgotten [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
E suffix [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
What ?
[JT2PSUNK]
E suffix .
[PS4SJ]
E suffix , yes . Again , that 's to some extent , it 's a grammatical convention , rather than a er a letter form convention , but it is extra letters . There are other things .
[JT2PSUNK]
Where it 's got the , it 's y [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Yeah , right . It 's got the is spelt , as a y with [UNCLEAR] e a tiny e , written above it .
[JT2PSUNK]
So [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
Some of the [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Ampersand is used for and , which is not used in modern printing and , and you 've got roman , roman numerals . So if you were commenting on such a section as this , you would have a great deal of things to say on , just on the letter forms as they appear on the page . Tell me what the rule is , for the usage of the s's . Look at all the words with s in , and s t's , and you should be able to draw from that , a rule , which is being observed by this printer In which position is the s printed as an f ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Before a t .
[JT2PSUNK]
Before a t .
[PS4SJ]
Before a t , and there 's another one , too .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] e , e .
[JT2PSUNK]
Before an e .
[JT2PSUNK]
Before an e .
[JT2PSUNK]
After .
[JT2PSUNK]
After an l .
[JT2PSUNK]
After an l .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
I forgot [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
At the beginning of a sentence , at the beginning of a word .
[PS4SJ]
It 's .
[JT2PSUNK]
In the middle of the word .
[PS4SJ]
Yeah , it 's actually , actually , having said that , it erm , it varies , does n't it . Because in fact , it 's in the middle of some words , erm , but as , it 's at the beginning of a word , which I now ca n't find .
[JT2PSUNK]
Just say it . [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Where ?
[JT2PSUNK]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Yes , sorry , you could say it again , is sent on line seven , or whatever is numbered seven . Apart from that , it 's only used in the beginnings of words , and the , the one clear rule is that s followed by a t is printed in this way . In fact , there , that that , that 's that printing of s , that shape of s , followed by a t , was still used by some printers right up until the twentieth century , because it 's actually , you know that when when prints , print was put together by hand , by picking up each letter erm , and as assembling it separately , there was actually always a stop letter , a stop erm , I ca n't remember what it 's called , although I did some printing years ago , erm , lump a die thing with s t already printed together , because because s t is used so much in combination , the erm , printer did n't always have to set up s followed by a t , but had a rack of s t's already prepared and they were often , virtually joined together in this way , and erm , I got , I got an edition of I think it 's the novels of Jane Austen printed in the nineteen twenties which still use that shape of s t but used as the small s for any other forms . You 'll sometimes find that , there 's a distinction made between the s and the , and the f , because the s does n't have either , either has a tail on it , or does n't have as big a bar across as the f one . But , in this case , the printer is using exactly the same font obviously , for s and f . The erm , what 's the rule that you observe with this dash above a vowel .
[JT2PSUNK]
Before an [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Sorry ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Before an n .
[PS4SJ]
[UNCLEAR] It 's not , it 's not just before it , it 's it actually indicates an n ,
[JT2PSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS4SJ]
does n't it , yeah . It shows that in fact , the following letter is an n . Erm , I do n't have any idea , not knowing very much about this , why that was done .
[JT2PSUNK]
They 've done it differently . [UNCLEAR] in one , in one heaven , they 've done er , they 've just put the n in one , in one heaven , they put the little thing on the e .
[PS4SJ]
Yeah . They , it could be something to do with space , erm , I do n't really know . Erm , but but , you can easily see what the rule is , ca n't you , I mean , it 's enough , it 's enough to be able to recognise that there is a pattern to that usage . This , this word here , this this again , it 's a , it 's a printer 's device . The , is one of the most common words in English and , to set up , the , all the time , would be very time consuming , and so this symbol was obviously available to the printer and obviously what it spells out is ye , which you now know from pubs that are called things like Ye Olde erm , Hen , and and that sort of thing . So it 's , it is a , it 's a survival in that m , in in that respect , and ye is t , is merely , erm , an archaic version of the , and and would have been pronounced ye . Erm , [UNCLEAR] ampersand is is quite interesting , you all know that symbol , because it 's used in handwriting , although nowadays , it , nowadays you would tend to use something like that I do n't know , what , do you , do you , do you sort of if you want to write and quickly .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Erm , but people who learned copperplate writing used to do this , for their and , [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
Like that .
[PS4SJ]
Yes [UNCLEAR] .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] like that .
[PS4SJ]
Like that ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Yeah , that 's it .
[PS4SJ]
Right , and that , that 's obviously a , an and if you look at it , it 's it 's got a few less squiggles than that one , but it 's a , it 's a version of . Erm , what why is it unusual to see that there ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Because it 's a shortening .
[PS4SJ]
It 's a shortener , yes . Carry on .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
What ? It 's a shortener and
[JT2PSUNK]
It 's formal writing . You do n't use that
[PS4SJ]
You do n't normally see it in print , do you . No , it 's it 's used it 's used in situations where an abbreviation can be made , or er , er , erm , an abstract symbol can be made , but again , this this was used normally in print , even in printing of novels and sermons and erm , and important documents , right up , u you know , up and well into the nineteenth century , before it was considered that that was not formal enough , and that the word and had to be written out formally Are there any words in this section which you ca n't find a modern English version of easily ? There are n't really , are there ? In that case , take the first paragraph erm take this first paragraph , you lot over here . The second paragraph , you you three , the third paragraph , you three , and do me an idiomatic version in five minutes .
[JT2PSUNK]
Erm .
[PS4SJ]
Now you want to , if you want to sub-divide that first paragraph , if one of you took it to : and the waters ceased , and the other half took it from : and the fountains of the deep .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
So that , can you could give me two , please , give me a literal translation and then an idiomatic one , as if you 're doing a modern bible .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
And you 've got five minutes to do both .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
So one person write , and the other one just say what they 're writing .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Right , you should have finished this , have you ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Yeah .
[JT2PSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS4SJ]
Have you three over there ?
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
Okay right , stop , stop , stop please , you 're [UNCLEAR] out of your heads if you have n't got it on to paper . Now , first section , that 's you two , is n't it .
[JT2PSUNK]
No , we 're in the second bit .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Oh , these two . Right give me this idiomatic first version , please , and any anything which is , which you consider to be not idiomatic .
[JT2PSUNK]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Right [ANONYMIZATION]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] I 'd like to know [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
So , can you listen to this please , erm , you have to finish in your heads now .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Listen to this first one . Now , when you 're trying to distinguish whether it 's idiomatic or not , do n't , you know it 's very difficult to find the fine line between something which is formal , and still idiomatic , and something which is idiomatic through being too colloquially informal . I 'll try and explain what I mean . Idiomatic means , in , wi with a sort of , with phrasing , with word ordering , with a choice of vocabulary which is immediately recognised what as modern English , but if this thing is written in a formal style then , it is fair enough , that the modern idiomatic version will also be very formal . Idiomatic does n't mean colloquial . It does n't have to be in every day speech patterns . If it 's a fairly formal written thing , but there , it has got to use word ordering , grammar , punctuation , vocabulary which are those , which are presently used . So are you ready er , to give us a version now , Tanya or Amelia or someone .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Come on , Amelia . Are you all working on the same one incidentally or have you got separate ones ?
[JT2PSUNK]
No . [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
[UNCLEAR] cos he 's done the last bit , [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
And God remembered Noah , the beasts and all the cattle that were with him in the Ark . God made the wind blow upon earth and stop the water .
[PS4SJ]
Okay . Everyone listening this time , let's have this once more . To comment on , if the if there 's anything there that does n't read to you as being totally idiomatic . Go again .
[PS4SJ]
God remembered Noah , the beasts and all the cattle that were with him in the Ark . God made the wind blow upon the earth and stop the water .
[JT2PSUNK]
You would n't say beasts .
[JT2PSUNK]
Say animals would n't you .
[JT2PSUNK]
You 'd say animals .
[PS4SJ]
Right .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Okay .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] Hairy creatures .
[JT2PSUNK]
I used these [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Yes , but you probably use it in a slightly different context , do n't you .
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
You might be using it as an , as an insult .
[PS4SJ]
[JT2PSUNK]
Erm .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
And you actually did , God remembered Noah and the beasts , did n't you ,
[PS4SJ]
Yeah , [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Why did you cut all , at that point ?
[PS4SJ]
I do n't know it was his idea .
[JT2PSUNK]
Erm , cos cos [UNCLEAR] three , stating three things , are n't there , and I thought it would be easy to
[PS4SJ]
Sorry , you were stating
[JT2PSUNK]
[JT2PSUNK]
Well , he was stating God remembered Noah , the beasts and the cattle . He was stating three things .
[PS4SJ]
Just God remembered Noah and all the animals .
[JT2PSUNK]
So instead of saying and all the time
[PS4SJ]
[UNCLEAR] What are cattle [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
No , no , no , no .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
That 's what I thought [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Yes , yes , I mean , I think it was , I do n't think that removing all actually did anything [UNCLEAR] , but [UNCLEAR] Shh , and only if you 're , if you 're adding to this , please . So when you got [UNCLEAR] [ANONYMIZATION] what did you do then .
[PS4SM]
She well , I , read your one [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Alright Tanya read your one .
[PS4SM]
Erm , God made the wind blow upon the earth and stopped the water .
[JT2PSUNK]
That 's right .
[PS4SJ]
Right , all I was going to ask was , have you , have you started a new sentence there , or have you got that as part of the original sentence ?
[PS4SM]
Started a new sentence .
[PS4SJ]
Should you have ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Should I have started a new sentence then .
[PS4SJ]
If we 're in modern standard English .
[JT2PSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS4SJ]
So you 're going to start a new sen start a new sentence with and .
[JT2PSUNK]
No , I did n't , we did n't .
[PS4SM]
[UNCLEAR] .
[PS4SJ]
What did you start it with ?
[JT2PSUNK]
It started with [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Ah , so you cut and .
[JT2PSUNK]
Yes .
[JT2PSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS4SJ]
Right . Right . Because another way to have done it , would have been , if you 're going to do it all , no , you did n't do it all in one sentence , that 's right . If you were going to , you could do it all in one sentence , that that 's the other point I was going to make . But you , in modern standard English you would n't begin a second sentence with and .
[PS4SM]
No .
[PS4SJ]
Because , as you 'll remember , it is frowned upon to begin a sentence with and , and I always cross it out in your essays , do n't I . Okay , the second section , please .
[JT2PSUNK]
The fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped and the rain of heaven was forbidden . [UNCLEAR] The waters returned to the earth and after erm , and were calm after a hundred and fifty days .
[PS4SJ]
Okay , I think we 'd better take this slowly .
[JT2PSUNK]
Alright .
[PS4SJ]
First phrase .
[JT2PSUNK]
The fountains of the deep and the
[PS4SJ]
Okay fountains of the deep .
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
Idiomatic ?
[JT2PSUNK]
No .
[PS4SJ]
What , what would have , what would the reference be to , that one could , could possibly use .
[JT2PSUNK]
The sea .
[PS4SJ]
I think that 's probably just a bit bald , is n't it . Fountains how could you convey the sense of waters , swirl , surging up out of the deep or something .
[JT2PSUNK]
Waves .
[JT2PSUNK]
The raging
[JT2PSUNK]
Currents
[JT2PSUNK]
Currents .
[JT2PSUNK]
The raging currents .
[JT2PSUNK]
The raging currents .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Certainly , did you say the fountains of the deep . Certainly the deep , I think , we would very rarely use the deep to talk about the sea now .
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
I do n't think we would .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] I just write down what she says .
[PS4SM]
No ! You turned round and said , do it in that one , so I 'm doing it in that one , then you changed to to doing it in that one . It were n't my fault .
[PS4SJ]
Right .
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
For whatever reason , what , ca can you come up with another version of the fountains of the deep .
[JT2PSUNK]
The raging waves .
[PS4SJ]
The what waves .
[JT2PSUNK]
The raging waves .
[JT2PSUNK]
The raging waves of the oceans .
[PS4SJ]
The raging waves .
[JT2PSUNK]
Yes .
[PS4SJ]
That 's pretty , that 's pretty dramatic is n't it . Well , it 's certainly it 's idiomatic .
[JT2PSUNK]
The swirling currents .
[JT2PSUNK]
The deep sea spray .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
No , I do n't know about a spray , I do n't know [UNCLEAR] although the fountain [UNCLEAR] the fountain idea , does n't it .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] so they could have a shower [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Shh , people . What you 're working towards here , is obviously to say that they were stopped and that this was the end of the flood , so it 's got to be something , something very major , and something like swirling currents Current , currents or raging waves does do that , I suppose . What about the windows of heaven . Wha what does the image mean ? What 's
[JT2PSUNK]
Clouds .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Well yeah , what whatever whatever it is that the rain comes through from heaven , something that opens , opens in heaven and lets the rain come through . So if you 're doing a a
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
a purely modern translation , what could you use for windows of heaven , and Niall is suggesting clouds , the clouds were stopped , the an and stopped in this sense means closed , the windows of heaven were closed . [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Possibly well no , cos they , because it then goes on to the rain in heaven , I was going to say , maybe send the rain
[JT2PSUNK]
Clouds cleared .
[PS4SJ]
The clouds , the clouds cleared , or were cleared , because it 's God doing all of this .
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
Fountains of the deep and windows of heaven were stopped , [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] angry storm [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
The waves of the deep , and the er , clouds were
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
Cloud [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Cleared , were dispersed , and what have you got next , anyway after that , that that 's obviously a very problematic thing , because it 's using poetic images which are very difficult to to move into modern standard English , but what have we got for the rain of heaven please [ANONYMIZATION] ?
[JT2PSUNK]
And the rain [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
And the rain does what ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Was forbidden , was stopped .
[PS4SJ]
Okay , well yeah , you 're changing it as you go now .
[JT2PSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS4SJ]
The rain of heaven . We always use that kind of phrase [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] the heavens are falling down .
[JT2PSUNK]
The acid rains , bring it up to date .
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
The rain of heaven .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
Could you give me another version of that please , . The rain of heaven , in idiomatic standard English .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] the weather forecast .
[JT2PSUNK]
No .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
Yes it does .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
And it , [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] just say the rain .
[JT2PSUNK]
[JT2PSUNK]
The falling rain .
[PS4SJ]
Falling rain , even the rain from the heaven , heav no you ca n't use heaven 's rain in this case , can you .
[JT2PSUNK]
The rain from the sky .
[PS4SJ]
Yeah , it 's not the heaven I 'm objecting to , it 's , it 's saying the rain of heaven , we we do n't use that kind of structure now . We would say the rain from heaven , or erm , heaven 's rain .
[JT2PSUNK]
Heavenly rain .
[PS4SJ]
Heavenly rain , yes , something like that .
[JT2PSUNK]
Rain which God sent .
[PS4SJ]
Erm , was forbidden , and [ANONYMIZATION] quickly changed that , to was stopped , or was prevented , or was refus was not refused . So carry on , rest of the sentence , please .
[JT2PSUNK]
The waters returned to the earth .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
[UNCLEAR] from , that 's not what it says , though , is it .
[JT2PSUNK]
What ?
[PS4SJ]
It says , and the waters returned from off the earth . So what 's it saying ?
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
The waters returned from off the earth . So what 's , what , where did they return .
[JT2PSUNK]
To the heaven .
[JT2PSUNK]
To no .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Sorry , sorry .
[JT2PSUNK]
They evaporated .
[JT2PSUNK]
They came from the earth , and that 's where they returned .
[JT2PSUNK]
Subsided .
[PS4SJ]
They subsided , yes . There were waters on the earth , but when the rain stopped , the waters went from off the earth , they went back to the seas , did n't they .
[JT2PSUNK]
Did they still think the Earth was flat in those days ?
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
Even , well , almost even at the time when this last translation was doing , but certainly the time the bible was written . What 's that got to do with it ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Because obviously I 'm not very , no it 's all right . Why did they think the Earth was flat for ?
[JT2PSUNK]
What is it [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
Just popped into my head .
[PS4SJ]
Sorry .
[JT2PSUNK]
Why did they think it was flat ?
[PS4SJ]
Well , you ca n't actually see a curve can you , when you look around .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
No , but it 's
[PS4SJ]
Sorry ?
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] like that .
[JT2PSUNK]
Did they actually , they thought then it just ended like [UNCLEAR] drop off [UNCLEAR] .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Literally . The fear , the fear when when voyages of exploration were going out right up to the renaissance , was that the boats would actually run off the end of the earth , and fall into a void .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
Who is it that went over , first ?
[PS4SJ]
Went over ? You mean over the edge ?
[JT2PSUNK]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
No , I mean [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Where ?
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
Oh , I know what I 'm talking about .
[PS4SJ]
Are you talking about Columbus ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS4SJ]
In fourteen ninety-two .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Yes . But that 's beside the point . So , shh please , Tanya , the waters returned from off the earth , so y , it 's saying the waters erm , ran off the earth , subsided from
[JT2PSUNK]
Waters subsided .
[PS4SJ]
Drained off .
[JT2PSUNK]
That 's what he had really .
[PS4SJ]
Carry on .
[JT2PSUNK]
And were calm after a hundred and fort fifty days , after [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Yeah , okay . I think we 'll , we 'll just about move on to the next paragraph please , is that you lot Paul .
[PS4SK]
The Ark rested on top of the Ararat mountains , on the seventeenth of July . The water
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
There was a lovely there was a lovely slow reaction there .
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
As everybody thought , July ?
[JT2PSUNK]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] seventeenth day of the seventh month [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
I mean , depends where your counting the months from , and I do n't know biblically , did they start in January ?
[JT2PSUNK]
[JT2PSUNK]
Did n't , did n't they mean that as in a period of time they 'd been stuck in the Ark .
[JT2PSUNK]
Yeah [UNCLEAR] do that .
[PS4SJ]
Well , I do n't know .
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
Alright . Paul carry on .
[PS4SK]
The water continued to evaporate until October .
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
Carry on .
[PS4SK]
And on the first , on the first of October , the tops of the mountains appeared .
[PS4SJ]
Okay .
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
You always know
[PS4SK]
That 's what I 'd say anyway .
[JT2PSUNK]
What .
[PS4SJ]
You always know when Paul does a version , it 's going to be his own version . But you do have to , you do have to be aware of being too clever for your own good , because they only want a translation . Erm , to do a complete re-writ vers re-written version is often what you are , what you are allowed to do , but I think you will al , also need to show them a fairly literal translation , first . So anyway , you did rested upon Ararat mountains and Elliot was arguing with that one , saying the mountains of Ararat . [UNCLEAR] I mean , the mountain is usually referred to as Mount Ararat , is n't it , I did n't know , [UNCLEAR] several of them , erm , is Ararat the place where the mountains were , or is it actually the name of the mountains .
[JT2PSUNK]
The name of the mountains .
[JT2PSUNK]
No . It 's the place where the mountains were . A mountain range .
[JT2PSUNK]
No , it says Mount Ararat .
[JT2PSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS4SJ]
So [UNCLEAR] what ?
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
So [UNCLEAR] yeah , I 'm not sure whether it , whether whether one should translate it as the mountains of Ararat , or the Ararat mountains . Certainly modern usage would suggest the name going before the mountains would n't it , and that 's what you 've opted for , and the the July one , I really do n't know about . Erm ,
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
But . The waters went away and decreased . I think in relation to the fact that we were talk , that the earliest earlier thinkers about the water running off the earth . I do n't think you could assume that they evaporated .
[PS4SK]
They must of , how else , what else [UNCLEAR] .
[JT2PSUNK]
I would , I would say subsided .
[PS4SJ]
No , ran down , you know , ran off into the ocean , ran into the rivers and off into the ocean , that way . I think all you need to say is they
[JT2PSUNK]
Subsided .
[PS4SJ]
subsided , decreased . Got less .
[JT2PSUNK]
Died down .
[PS4SJ]
[UNCLEAR] died down .
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
The assumption that they evaporated , is not there .
[JT2PSUNK]
I thought that , though .
[PS4SJ]
Sorry ?
[JT2PSUNK]
Nothing .
[JT2PSUNK]
You have , you have taken the word evaporated out of the air , and it 's it 's an assumption , you must cross that out .
[JT2PSUNK]
Well , it 's a valid assumption , cos where , waters 'll go [UNCLEAR] evaporate [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
It it gets evaporated eventually .
[PS4SJ]
If you er , if the people of West Sussex a couple of weeks ago , when there was flooding around Chichester , they 're actually going to wait for the waters to evaporate .
[JT2PSUNK]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Not in the middle of winter .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] It 'd be gone within a few hours .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
That 's because it soaks into the earth .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] drains .
[JT2PSUNK]
Drains .
[JT2PSUNK]
Yeah .
[JT2PSUNK]
Evaporates like [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
I think you need to tidy up a bit .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] puddles on concrete .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
It 's not going to sink into the concrete , is it ?
[PS4SJ]
Unless they 're [UNCLEAR] on concrete it 's very shallow , and and evaporation is possible , when your talking about floods on land , yes , it 's going to seep into the earth , it 's gon na run down [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] run down the drain , then .
[JT2PSUNK]
I remember when I was [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Yeah . [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Okay . Apart from that , I think we can accept a erm , that this th th the that that 's a fairly reasonable meaning .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
What about the last one , please , whose gon na read that . Darren loudly . Listen , please . Shh .
[PS4SL]
At the end of forty days Noah opened the window of the Ark , that he had made and sent out a raven which came and went until the waters upon the earth had dried up .
[PS4SJ]
Yeah well , did everyone hear that ?
[JT2PSUNK]
No .
[PS4SJ]
could we have it again with a bigger voice ?
[PS4SL]
At the end of forty days Noah opened the window of the Ark
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
Shh , shh , no , please , listen .
[PS4SL]
He had made and sent out a raven which came and went until the waters upon the earth had dried up .
[PS4SJ]
And sent out a raven , what ?
[PS4SL]
Which came and went until the waters upon the earth had dried up .
[PS4SJ]
Right , I see .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Which came and went is there , in some way I think you 've lost a bit of meaning there . In came and went , because it 's got , which went out ever going and coming again , the ever , aspect has gone , so how could you get that .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Or came and went continually , or something like that .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Constantly .
[JT2PSUNK]
Went back .
[PS4SJ]
And the last , shh , please the last part of the sentence I [UNCLEAR]
[PS4SL]
Erm , upon the earth , hang on , and went until the waters upon the earth had drained .
[PS4SJ]
[UNCLEAR] well , okay , right what I would like you to do , on your bit of paper
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
On your , on the sheet of paper that you 've got , could you now , that , that sheet , could you , write down , please , different letter form differences , and put a sub-heading that says , something like : letter forms , [UNCLEAR] the other one of these was that [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
with the y with the little t's above it . That one and that , so you 've got , one , two , three , four , five , six different sorts of letter form changes to comment on . Could you ,
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
I I suggest you do it on the same sheet that 's got the th the I ca n't see a copy ,
[JT2PSUNK]
Sorry .
[PS4SJ]
actually do it on this sheet , somewhere on there , so you 'll have a revision of [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS4SJ]
Make a list of the wheth of the letter form changes ,
[JT2PSUNK]
Right .
[PS4SJ]
Then make a list of some of the obvious spelling changes , which I 'm going to ask you about in a moment .
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
What just do what we 've really just said ?
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS4SJ]
Just summarise .
[JT2PSUNK]
On the sheet .
[PS4SJ]
On this sheet , cos then you 've got it for revision . Yeah .
[JT2PSUNK]
Oh , on this sheet .
[PS4SJ]
On that sheet .
[JT2PSUNK]
Okay .
[PS4SJ]
And what you need to do is , obviously indicate what the modern version is , next to that [UNCLEAR]
[JT2PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] shut up , alright .
[PS4SJ]
Paul .
[JT2PSUNK]
I was going to
[PS4SJ]
Elliot . Just do it . Can you just do that . Ah .
[JT2PSUNK]
[PS4SJ]
Do n't do the i y , e one , because we 'll take that as a spelling and grammatical change .
[JT2PSUNK]
Was it , was the s t one because of printing .
[PS4SJ]
Well , yeah , because it was a traditional grouping , but , the use of the , of the , of the long round shape for an s , was an early form , anyway , and you see , it 's used , it 's not used just for s t , there are several cases where it 's used , as purely as an s . Even though exactly the same letter form is used , same type form is used as for the f Good .
[JT2PSUNK]
[JT2PSUNK]
Hello .