WMN: t3_1ayifp_t1_c91y4yc

[TITLE]

I find teenage dating silly. CMV.

[IbrahimT13]

I think there have been slightly similar posts before, but I don't think I've seen a post quite like this one yet. The mostly Western institution of teenage dating, such as in high school and middle school, always seemed rather strange to me (possibly relevant, I was born in Pakistan, but I've lived in Canada since late 1999, and am currently 17). Obviously, this is a fairly ubiquitous practice, so I want to know what's incorrect about my view. First of all, it seems rather superficial. Lots of the relationships that I see other people at my school go through seem not to be motivated by love or anything of the sort. It seems to be more like picking a favourite person of the opposite sex (or the same, I guess) to be best friends with for as long as possible. This includes obligatory dates that are nothing more than glorified hangouts. Second of all, it seems pointless. Most relationships in high school don't end in anything more than a break-up. This can change friendships for the worse (for both the ex-couple and the friends involved) and basically end with everyone a little worse off. Even if the couple breaks up and they remain friends, what was the point of the relationship? Third of all - and this is partially related to the previous point - it causes unnecessary drama and emotional pain with no intention of proper commitment. Not only the actual people in the relationship, but their entire social spheres end up worrying about the state of a relationship which probably won't end in anything substantial, like, say, marriage or something (not saying all relationships should end in marriage, but a high school or middle school one has a very low chance of it). Instead, it stresses out people financially and emotionally in ways that minors shouldn't have to face. Why would anyone make a decision for which there are more cons than pros and the chances of actual benefits are low? Fourth of all, students are too busy to be worrying about relationships. In fact, I've seen at least one relationship end because one party was too busy. Adults are busy too, (and maybe I don't know the extent of how busy they are due to my age) but students spend six hours a day at school, one or two more on homework and extracurriculars, and many have jobs, chores, and volunteering as well. It feels like too much to ask to include a relationship as well. Fifth and finally, many teenage relationships involve sex, which seems to me to just not be appropriate for teenagers. Sex is a very intimate and personal act (if it weren't, rape wouldn't be such a serious crime), so the fact that it's almost a given for some relationships just seems odd. While teenagers are autonomous individuals, the teenage brain isn't even fully developed (though that isn't my whole justification) and the relationships are often devoid of actual plans to commit or love and thus don't really justify something as monumental in one's life as sex. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that teenagers shouldn't be allowed to be in relationships, but the whole practice of teenage dating just seems strange to me. I'm also not saying that dating itself is strange. Just teenage dating. **TL;DR: I find teenage dating silly because:** 1. **It seems superficial and loveless.** 2. **It seems pointless with each relationship doomed to fail.** 3. **It causes more drama and pain than it is worth.** 4. **It causes too much stress in the already busy and involved lives of students.** 5. **Sex often comes with it, and if it's already loveless and doomed to fail, it's a bad idea to have sex as well.**

[CCPirate]

You're right.

[TheHarbingerr]

Middle school is excluded in this. In middle school, relationships were not on my mind, and so I cannot attempt to provide a different perspective and its own set of points to make. Also, it started off small, but now my thumbs hurt. I'm sorry for the long read. I'm unsure if this counts as me challenging one or more points, but I feel that the following should be mentioned at the least. (Edit: I did end up trying to talk about all. Whoops.) Rational and logical thinking is not present in all of us. I'll agree with most of your points, sure, but in first world countries, where teenagers are free to explore their sexuality, and make mistakes at an early time. The following is anecdotal, and certainly unlikely: I have two separate individuals that have been in relationships for 5 and 6 years, beginning 11th and 10th grade, respectively. I look at my past, and I notice that I engaged in multiple meaningless endeavors. Would I repeat it again? Yes. I was taught, by going through my mistakes, that you can indeed be with people to fulfill sexual desires, and that it is okay to do so if both sides are in the same boat; and if not, things can get troublesome, and the situation should be avoided. I was also taught that love, to me, is something that requires a lot to be felt, and that saying it is a big step that shouldn't be hastened. My life has a long way to go, but I learned from my mistakes. You could've repeated your arguments time after time, and I still would have went through with what I did. This is because not all of us can disregard our emotions, our desires, and stick to logical points.Besides, we are not mentally devoted enough to fully be rational at that age, anyways! For your first point: What do you define as a relationship? Are all couples able to have a romantic outing every time? Are dates where you just hang out really bad? I've been through some hanging out dates, and these are a different kind, yes, but you are also sharing your time and life with whom you currently adore. I know I remember some of those times when I think back, and I absolutely enjoyed living them. Besides, constantly treating somebody to something new, or same old dinner, will just dilute the experience. I am aware hanging out is subject to the same point. If I didn't go through with them because it is superficial, I would have missed out on so much. Second point: I've blabbed before, on this (see above) but it comes down to the experience you gain, and the memories you will cherish as you get older. I love reminiscing about the fun I had with my previous girlfriends, and even though I don't talk to them, I know our thoughts will sometimes cross. As for their friends, it is something that should be made clear from the beginning, in my opinion. Some can handle keeping in touch, others can't. That doesn't mean, however, that you shouldn't pursue a relationship because you can't answer "what's the point?" Third point: Caring for the social sphere's worries is unsubstantiated if you are thinking superficially. Why would it matter what a relationship ends up as? I also feel that mentioning drama as one of the reasons to avoid teenage dating to be quite flawed as a cause. Additionally, what are relationships supposed to lead to? You say not to marriage is fine, but it has a low chance. Hmm. Disregarding more ancient societal/biological conventions, are we not supposed to do what we like because it doesn't lead to monogamy? We Canadians ( as well as other countries) live in a multicultural world that is accepting of all, and remaining single, in a monogamous long-term relationship, or even polygamy is perfectly fine, and a viable end-goal for relationship, whether it is from high school or onwards. Lastly, financial stress? I went through a stage where I thought constantly showering one in cute gifts is awesome, and I did end up stressed. That's a lesson learned, and it took me a high school relationship to recognize it. I also learned that when I couldn't afford them, I was still appreciated. Lastly, lastly, emotional stress is present all throughout your life. Minor or not, you will face it. How long can one be protected before they are considered able to mend their emotionally caused stress wounds? It turns out, it varies. Some buckle under pressure, and some recoup and strive, and it is something that is better recognized at an early age, where parents/counselors are able to assist. Fourth point: Busy? In high school? Most people at that age will likely never be free to the same level until much later. I managed to balance attending all my classes (only 4 lectures missed), a full social life, a girlfriend that I saw almost everyday, video games every other day and grades that got me into the second highest undergraduate degree I can apply for at my local university. There are some that went above and beyond what I could do-- expected, as I know I'm considered average nowadays-- and still had time to have their fun. People, after 20, will get married, have a much busier life, and still get home to see their wife, or even girlfriend. Worse, they might not even have time to explore their selves like they could've in their teens. Citing time as a reason not to enjoy and explore yourself in high school is silly. Fifth point: The view point that regards sex as a grand emotional unification is of course valid, but others have a different ones, where sex can be just for fun, and does not require a ceremony to acquire, or, in some cases, the "true" feeling of love. If one does not see it as you do, what is preventing them from enjoying it at their teenage age? They can be shaped by our society, which loves to portray sex as a not so intimate thing, but not all will fall for that. I hope what I said helps. If it doesn't, I hope you at least considered the different view point. TL;DR: People, who are also teenagers or were at some point, don't always think logically. People also need to make mistakes to learn from them and to avoid repeating them. Or maybe not: they have the right to enjoy their young life, their experiences with others as they mentally (and physically) develop, and move on as needed. So they shall.v

[jimmychim]

While your points are interesting, I think that the kind of messiness you describe is absolutely necessary for people to learn about how to handle themselves and others - a further degree of socialization. Thus, teenage relationships are often just as important as a learning experience as an emotionally gratifying one. Without learning how to flirt, how to get close to someone without hurting them, how to communicate productively etc etc at that age, you end up with people doing it much later or not at all, which imo isn't that awesome a state of affairs to have.

[poolboywax]

With proper protection and understanding of sex, 1-4 are problems that can occur in relationships at any age. people have to eventually learn how relationships work, how to manage being busy with a relationship, and how to handle heartbreak/drama/whatever. it is better to learn these things when they are young and have such immediate access to their parents for advice and to have their parents there to support them financially. when they're older and out in the world, the decisions they make then are ones that effect their livelihood, their rent, their income, etc. and they are less likely to go to their parents for relationship advice. dealing with relationships for the first time as an adult is like trial by fire as opposed to starting young which is like having a safety net while they practice for later.

[cmvplease]

I spent most of my pre-adolescent and adolescent life obsessed with romantic relationships, wanting desperately to have a boyfriend because I was insecure in myself - personality, looks, the whole shebang. My parents were pretty strict and didn't want me to date until I graduated high school but I snuck behind their backs starting in 10th grade. Here's some insight! 1. For the most part, it *is* superficial and loveless. Teenagers are young and stupid. The person they are then are (hopefully) not the person they are as adults. You've got all these hormones and are trying to figure out to use your brain for yourself and separate what you see on TV and hear in songs from real life. Also, most of the time, the biggest goal in life is to be accepted by peers, which means acting stupid or being into things that are stupid or saying stupid things to be "cool." So yeah, why date as teenagers if teenagers are immature shitheads? While a lot of relationships can start just for physical purposes (to gain more experience) or to simply have a boyfriend, teenagers are able to learn how to communicate with someone else beyond a friendship level. This is similar to why a lot of kids go to kindergarten or pre-schools/daycare. Outside of parents with jobs, it makes it possible for the kids to start developing human relationships with others, work with others, share, etc. Okay, a three year old who is "best friends" with another three year old probably does not have a true friendship. However, it's the building blocks in interacting with other people and teaches communication, something you can't teach through reading or writing. Like pre-school, high school relationships can teach someone the basics of a relationship, even if it doesn't actually mean anything. Going through the motions of a date, maintaining a conversation with one single other person you are interested in, even stuff like holding hands, gets a teenager comfortable with the basics of a relationship. When going on a date or being in a relationship later on down the road, the person can now feel more at ease since they've done it before. Also, I think more importantly, vapid teenage relationships teaches the person what an actual relationship feels like. In high school, I was a stupid asshole and dated a few guys just to be in a relationship, to make myself feel less insecure. I realize that *now* how stupid that is, as I felt nothing for these guys but liked that they liked me. I went through the motions just because it was "cool." After high school, I got into a couple possible relationships/dating situations and I soon realized what relationships were forced and fake and not worth my time because I had been through them before. Now, I'm in a fantastic relationship with someone I'm excited to be with. I like spending time with him and talking to him about anything, and I like being his support system. I want him to be happy and it makes me happy. Maybe it's obvious to some, but I think it's important for teenagers to realize the stupidity of vain relationships so they can easily realize it when they are older and not get into that type of relationship again. 2. It seems pointless because they usually fail. True, but there's a reason they usually fail. After high school graduation, people do a lot of different things with their lives. Some go to college. Some work. Some move far away. Some stay home. Some don't change at all, but most people do. You're no longer in this institution where you HAVE to go to and do things at certain times - you're kind of just left on your own and it becomes your responsibility if you fail/can't get by. This forces a lot of people to mature, or at least take on more responsibility, and people change when they are faced with new pressures. A lot of people also start over new, as someone new, and are therefore feel a lot freer to be the person they want to be, instead of the person they used to be in high school. So yeah, people change a lot after high school graduation. The person you were when you were in high school is probably not the person you are when you graduate - so why would your dating preferences be exactly the same? Sometimes, two people grow together and change together through this time, but, most of the time, two people change too drastically for things to work out. Anyway, so what's the point of the relationship if you're two different people by the end of it? A relationship can make you realize who you are as a person. While it's easy to be with someone when you are doing something routine every day, once your life changes, your relationship changes. Maybe fights happen. But then you can see who you are, why you feel certain ways, how these differences came about, and why you react the way you do. Anecdotal: I dated a guy for two years at the end of high school. I went out of state for college while he stayed at home. I realized I wanted things to change while he was content with things the way they were. I liked being really social while he was more content with staying in and not make new circles of friends, which is fine, but it caused a rift between us. At first, I didn't know why it was happening, but then realized it was who I was. It made me reflect on what had changed between us and made me realize my own shittiness and selfishness. Ending the relationship opened my eyes to a lot of things I had been lying to myself for so long, like I liked the idea of the relationship more than him as a person, and that was selfish and wrong. So yeah, without the failure of the relationship, I wouldn't be able to know so much about myself and admit my own social faults/strengths. Knowing this, we both come out of having a better understanding of who we are as people in relationships and who we would best get along with in relationships. The more we develop who we don't get along with, the easier it is for us to find a relationship that does work for us. We can pick up warning signs of past mistakes or see when we are acting stupidly like done before.

[cmvplease]

3. Is drama and pain necessarily a bad thing all the time? I mean, okay, pain all the time is terrible. But being that hurt can be incredibly beneficial later on. Being hurt once means you can brace yourself if/when it happens again. You develop tactics of dealing. You recognize signs of something going wrong. As for the drama, you learn to communicate through that and can have a better way to avoid it in the future. You touch a hot stove once, you know not to touch it again later. 4. It can cause a lot of stress for students, but it also helps with time management. High school, while it can be important for the future, is also a good time to learn time management. A lot of the things teenagers do are inconsequential to others, like joining clubs or grades. You're not running a business (usually) or performing surgeries or taking care of kids (hopefully/usually). Learning from the get go how to deal with work, activities, and relationships can be really important. Even if it ultimately does more harm than good, isn't it better to learn that in an environment where the consequences for it are a bit smaller than being in the real world where you can get fired or hurt someone (like not paying attention to responsibilities). 5. Sex is not necessarily bad. Sex is always this mythical thing of awesomeness as adolescents when it's really just another part of life. There are so many other awesome things about life that getting caught up with the idea of sex can really overshadow teenagers' thoughts. If they do get exposed to sex, they're able to see how it's not this magical thing that the world revolves around. While I don't condone teenagers having sex and think waiting is important, it can also teach teenagers that sex is natural, intimate, and fun. While it can be a destructive learning experience, it can also be a sex positive experience, and hopefully teach safety and responsibility at a young age.

[IbrahimT13]

This is actually the one that changed my view. I have various scruples with the others (which I will comment when I am not on my iPod), but the whole Kindergarten parallel is the one that convinced me. ∆ EDIT: I'm sure others would have convinced me too, but this guy was the first. Also, this conversation seems over now, so I'll just move on.

[DeltaBot]

Confirmed - 1 delta awarded to /u/cmvplease

[lashW]

I'm 18. I've never dated. Never had sex nor even kissed a girl (don't regret it either, I can wait) and although I can kind of see where your coming from I must disagree. Keep in mind I'm inexperienced for my age so I may be wrong. While I agree dating during teenage years is often quite shallow and meaningless (in the sense that it's not long term) and nearly all these high school relationships are doomed, I don't think that makes it silly. Dating during teenage years provides teens with useful physical, mental and emotional experience with regards to dating which can help their future relationships. Take your 4th point for example, instead of avoiding relationships to save time from a busy schedule wouldn't it be good experience to learn how to manage time between your relationship and other commitments? Relationships do have its fair share of drama and pain but that's part of the dating experience and it's these experiences that cause people to grow. In fact it's quite an important part of the human experience for some.

[AkimboAssassin]

I think your counter to point 4 is especially valid. Your schedule only gets busier as you get older, and the rules around your social interactions only get more restrictive.

[spblat]

I'm not for teenagers having sex. But I believe dating as a teenager provides experiences that are helpful to forming more useful relationships when we're older. Yes teenage relationships are generally doomed to failure, but if we're smart we learn from the mistakes we make each time our hearts are broken. I'll grant you I learned more about making a relationship work while I was in college than I did in high school. But I still think there's a place for it.

[Valkurich]

How many relationships in a person's life aren't doomed to failure? One. Sometimes two if your parter dies. What metric are we measuring success by here?

[spblat]

I think that's my point: just because a relationship is unlikely to succeed doesn't mean it's not worth the effort.

[mythcaptor]

I have mixed feelings about this topic. I never dated as a teen (not really a matter of choice, but rather social anxiety) and so I'm admittedly a little bitter, but considering the concept of teen dating from a purely objective standpoint, it does make sense to me. For simplicity's sake, I'll address your tldr points. [STA-CITE]>It seems superficial and loveless. [END-CITE]This one I disagree with most strongly. I think any relationship has the capacity to be superficial and loveless, but generalizing teen relationships as being predominantly so is, in my opinion, simply incorrect. I've personally known peers who have been in really loving beautiful relationships as teens. I know my personal experience is unlikely to influence your views, but I'd ask you to at least consider when you think relationships gain the capacity to be loving and meaningful? Is absolute maturity totally necessary in every relationship? [STA-CITE]>It seems pointless with each relationship doomed to fail. [END-CITE]I can see this perspective, but my mom met my dad when she was 16. She's 52 now, and they're still together. Soul mates do happen, occasionally. Maybe most of them fail, but I also think there's truth in the idiom "better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all". The experience of the relationship influences you for the better (assuming it was a healthy relationship) even if it was doomed to fail. [STA-CITE]>It causes more drama and pain than it is worth. [END-CITE]I feel like this is another broad generalization, and it's taking a statement that could be extended to relationships at any age, and specifically attaching it to teen relationships. Relationships are complicated and have the potential for pain. Period. Maybe statistically teen relationships are more likely to fail, but does that mean you shouldn't try? I'd also just like to point out that the previous two points are opinions. Valid opinions maybe, but not grounded in objective reality. I'd be interested to hear an explanation of why you have these views. [STA-CITE]>It causes too much stress in the already busy and involved lives of students. [END-CITE]Life doesn't get any less complicated or busy when you leave school, I promise. [STA-CITE]>Sex often comes with it, and if it's already loveless and doomed to fail, it's a bad idea to have sex as well. [END-CITE]This is an issue in of it's self, and not the view i'm trying to change in this thread, but other than religious abstinence, which I personally don't adhere to (though I respect other's decisions to do so), I see no reason that two consenting teens shouldn't practice safe sex. It's an opportunity to explore and learn about each other's bodies, and face it, it's a pretty unbeatable sensation. It's fun. edit: grammar

[CarterDug]

1) Dating doesn't have to be deep and about love. It can be about having fun, and learning how to date. 2) Dating doesn't have to be about finding eternal love. It can be about having fun, and learning how to date. 3) and 4) are your opinion, both of which are partially based on the assumption that dating is about deep, eternal love. Others may not share your opinion. 5) Sex doesn't have to be about love. It can be about having fun, and learning how to have sex. Just be safe about it. At some point, people are going to have to learn that relationships aren't the sunshine fairy tales that Hollywood presents them as. Whether they learn that in their teen years or in their adult years, it's going to happen.

[TheSacrilege]

Points 1 and 2 are quite, excuse the pun, *pointless*. No one dates to get better at dating. What's the point of dating if you aren't looking for someone to spend time with? If it's only sex, then you know that you don't really have to have an SO to get that right?

[CommanderShep]

Spending time with someone dosent mean you can't learn how to date. You learn by spending time. And you don't date to get better, but there are skills that strengthen when used. I'm sure you've had some moments where you go " I'll never do that again

[sailorbrendan]

I disagree. A big part of dating is learning about yourself. I had three or four longish relationships in high school, and it teaches you what you're looking for and what you don't want. Regardless of your age, your first relationships are unlikely to work out because you get caught up in all kinds of things... maybe you're too jealous, maybe you don't like what you think you like, maybe you don't know how to spot people who are too controlling. Experience counts for a lot in life.

[TheSacrilege]

I agree with what you said about how dating helps in understanding yourselves better. But what does learning how to date mean? I am sorry if I got caught up in OP's comment's semantics, but it appeared to me that he said people should date to learn how to date. That doesn't make sense.

[skepticaldreamer]

I think you have more of a problem with the wording that the meaning behind it. (BTW, I'm a guy) What he means is you learn what it's like to date, how to treat a girl on a date, how much MONEY it takes to bring a girl on a date, and just lets you practice that before girls have certain expectations. Sometimes, dates are the only chance you get to talk to a girl 1v1, and that can also be a learning experience. Does that make more sense?

[craneomotor]

One learns how to date in the same way that one learns how to speak, when to shake hands, or how much personal space to give other people. Humans are social creatures, sex (understood in the broadest sense here, not just the physical act) is a social activity, and social activities have to be learned - and the way social activities are learned is not through rote memorization, but by observing, doing, and trial and error (a process referred to as "socialization"). Considering how tremendously complex sex and all associated activities are (which is *a lot* of activities), it takes years to learn how to date, and many if not most people never "master" it. To take a concrete example, Amy Schalet undertook a study comparing American and Dutch teen dating cultures ([here's a good article that she wrote about her findings](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/opinion/sunday/24schalet.html)), along with various social metrics like teen pregnancy, divorce rates, etc. What she found was that the permissive Dutch culture, which allows teens to experiment and learn while still living with and receiving the guidance of their parents, created much healthier attitudes about sex and dating than did the restrictive American culture, which limits teenage sexual activity and so creates adults with less experience and knowledge.

[TheSacrilege]

This sub-reddit is fun. ∆, for you as well. It's nice to be able to talk your mind out on here. Edit: Why won't the bot give you a Delta? :S

[DeltaBot]

Confirmed - 1 delta awarded to /u/craneomotor

[craneomotor]

Thank you!

[sailorbrendan]

Learning how to date is also a fairly important thing. Its a relatively important social dynamic. It may seem petty, but when to say "i love you" is huge, along with actually figuring out what the hell saying "i love you" means. how much to text, how much contact you want, need, dont need... how to be a good significant other, how not to get taken advantage of, how to be a good lover, what kind of kinks you have... all of these things you can only learn by doing it.

[TheSacrilege]

That's a very nice explanation. ∆, for you.

[skepticaldreamer]

Oops, didn't see this before I wrote this haha

[DeltaBot]

Confirmed - 1 delta awarded to /u/sailorbrendan

[gcalde]

Bravo.