WMN: t3_1uldzf_t1_ceje7ty

[TITLE]

The oral tradition of mythology, and the surrounding celebrations is something that has no secular equivalent. CMV.

[howbigis1gb]

I am an agnostic atheist and would even call myself antitheist, but my folks were religious. Not very, and they never forced stuff on me. http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1bki6u/i_think_that_all_religion_is_bad_and_should_never/c97i69h Is a description of my experience with it growing up. [STA-CITE]>I was brought up by nonreligious parents who identified as Hindu. My grandparents are Hindu and strongly so. Now it's a pretty lax religion with no central doctrine - which is why I'm not so much against it, but I am glad for that upbringing. It gave me things that a purely atheistic upbringing would not have. [END-CITE][STA-CITE]>Primary the food and tradition. Festivals were a time for families to get together, brush misunderstanding under the table and have fun for a day. Sure there were some prayers, but we kids always sneaked off and were never any worse for it. It was like Christmas and Santa - except it happened multiple times in a year. [END-CITE][STA-CITE]>And we had a little house garden on the roof, and I used to wake up early in the morning and pluck flowers for the prayer. [END-CITE][STA-CITE]>It was a ritual - but it was hardly religious for me. [END-CITE][STA-CITE]>That's not to say that Hinduism is harmless - far from it. But a lot of the ills came from the state of society at the time, and there are some aspects of the festivals I would have changed. And a number of ills in Indian society are as a result of Hinduism. But the religion is so lax that with a changing society the only things that have more or less stayed the same are the celebrations. [END-CITE][STA-CITE]>There aren't social rituals or traditions which are atheistic in nature which I have been part of which had the fun-ness of the religious festivals of my childhood. [END-CITE][STA-CITE]>Religion creates stories, an oral tradition, encourages fun for its sake, creates a vibrant culture that is communal in nature. [END-CITE][STA-CITE]>Atheism is deeply personal and is not defined by anything. [END-CITE][STA-CITE]>So in essence - having treated, and being allowed to treat religion as nothing more than some rituals with little of the actual devotion I think a lot of it is something I would consider worth preserving. [END-CITE] Now I like the fact that these festivals existed and people take time to celebrate them. It's kind of like a fan convention - with great food and celebration. Diwali, Holi, Christmas, Eid and many more. ***Perhaps*** you can say Halloween, but it is a very exclusionary holiday (kids trick or treat, teens are in some weird limbo, college kids go crazy and it is less accepting of older people). Thanksgiving is based on questionable grounds and is - in my opinion - rather dull. No; not 4th of July. The gift exchanges and such (not SS) give me some hope for secular celebration (of sorts), but it is too limited in scope and definitely doesn't have the scale. Perhaps you will regale me of historical celebrations. I would love to hear of them, but they don't seem to currently exist really and there don't seem to be any interest in setting them up. I suppose carnivals and concerts - but relatively these too are limited in scope. Anyway - I am of course assuming that these things are interesting and fun and shouldn't go away so saying "good riddiance" is not a convincing argument.

[infernalspacemonkey]

I didn't think you could be both an agnostic *and* and atheist. An atheist doesn't believe in any deity. Isn't an agnostic who doesn't believe either way?

[howbigis1gb]

I lack belief in any god or gods so I am an atheist. I am an agnost because I claim that the problem of god is at its core an epistemological problem which is unknowable in principle, and currently unknown in fact. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

[feminaprovita]

What about the traditions and rituals that have grown up around sports games? Football (both kinds) are perfect examples. They're different from religious celebrations, because they're closer to weekly than annual, but for many households they are family events, and depending on your team and level of fandom, they can take up the whole day or the whole weekend, with impressive pageantry. (I can't believe no one has said this yet!)

[RDRDRDx7]

The origin of these traditions is usually secular. Most religious holidays take place around stellar events; equinox, solstice, seasons, phase of the moon. This is one way in which the uneducated ancient man would keep track of what time of year it was. Doing so would help him know what he should be doing, and often, the myths revolving around these holidays, demonstrate what the religious practitioner should be doing with his time. i.e. the mayday, harvest festivals, halloween. Every year, come Christmas, early man new that each day was going to start getting longer, and that meant that the cold would eventually end. The myths surrounding the any given religious holiday will often shed light on the original purpose of the holiday. Myths from around the world are filled with instructions on how to survive (check out Australian aboriginal myth), or they teach us how to act within society. We often see holidays dedicated to a god/goddess. When looking at these, try not to see the gods as superhuman beings, but rather archetypes. In this way, we are celebrating an aspect of personality, a way to be/live. Now, there are some situation that arise within religion, where an individual person becomes important to the religion they represent. There are often feasts and holidays dedicated to these individuals. I maintain that it is to reinforce a behavior, or personality characteristic, that we celebrate these holidays. Often, societies could benefit from having more individuals behaving the way that their heroic gods behave. TLDR: Many aspects of religious practices have little to do with the existential.

[beer_demon]

Birthday party, new year's celebrations, independence days, anniversaries, graduations, etc. are all secular celebrations on a broad scope.

[CrazyPlato]

First off, Hallowen is a Christian repurposing of the pagan holiday Samhain, not a secular tradition. I don't see why you exclude historical days like July 4th or Thanksgiving. They're a tradition rooted within a culture, one that we practice collectively and draw strength from, and has little to no religious connotation. In short, they're exactly the thing you're challenging us to find. If you want another one that's incredibly rooted in a culture without a religious background, look up Guy Fawkes Day in England. I you want mythology that doesn't draw from faith: Johnny Appleseed and Paul Bunyan are figured made to represent cornerstones of America. culture. Heck, some Christmas traditions are not based in religion at all (Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer, Frosty the snowman). We te those stories because they resonate with us as a group, but not out of religious faith. The point I'm making is that mythology is based not in religion, but in culture. A fine distinction, because most cultures cake together because of shared religious fath, but a present one nonetheless. Small things that we do for no reason but because that's how we do them (put your tooth under a pillow, so the tooth fairy can retrieve it). We end up sharing concepts together as a group, and sometimes ther give birth to characters and stories.

[Return_of_the_Native]

Can I ask what you mean by 'the oral tradition of mythology'? Because you seem to just be talking about religion. Mythology and oral traditions are not necessarily religious.

[howbigis1gb]

Well; I grew up in a Hindu background. Most of the tales I've heard have been passed down orally, and it was lots of fun for me to listen to them. I guess you are right - oral traditions need not be religious. Folktales, etc. are an example of those that I'd forgotten. So a ∆ for reminding me about that.

[DeltaBot]

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[Omega037]

When I lived in Japan, there were tons of holidays and festivals during the spring and summer that were steeped in tradition (some older, some newer) that often had little or nothing to do with the Shinto-Buddhist religion. Take [Kodomo no Hi (Children's Day)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_Day_(Japan\)) for example, which is meant simply as a day for children to have fun. Carp shaped banners fly and special dolls are placed everywhere as children attend and participate in parades, dancing, special meals, music, games, and a host of other fun activities. Furthermore, this celebration dates back around 1400 years and has its own legends such as [Kintarou](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kintar%C5%8D), who is based on a real person named Sakata Kintoki. If this example isn't enough, I can provide more.

[howbigis1gb]

Yay! That sounds like so much fun. You really do deserve a ∆ - there. And while I gave out that ∆ - I'd love to hear more.

[Omega037]

A small town South of mine in Kagawa Prefecture, called Nio, has an annual Dragon Festival. They would build a giant straw dragon (35 meters and 3 tons) and carry it through the streets while throwing water on it. The event originated about 200 years ago at the advice of a local priest to help call for rain, but was discontinued. Around 25 years ago, locals in the town decided to recreate the event as a fun celebration. I got to help carry the dragon, but not ride on it (I'm fat). [Here](http://nippon-kichi.jp/article_list.do?p=4030&ml_lang=en) is a link to it, but I have a ton of better pictures of the event if you are interested.

[howbigis1gb]

Yeah I'd love to see the pictures.

[Omega037]

[I made a quick album of a few decent shots that should let you see the whole dragon](http://imgur.com/a/D8wft).

[DeltaBot]

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[WearThatBallAndChain]

I submit that religious ceremonies will continue to become more and more secular. For example Christmas is a great example of how a religious holiday has become more and more of a secular holiday. Many individuals are more and more seeing it as a time to get together with family and exchange gifts rather than as a time to celebrate the birth of Christ. I also submit that just because you do not like 4th of July and Thanksgiving does not mean that you can discount them as secular celebrations that contain many of the criteria that you are asking for. For example both have great food and celebration.

[howbigis1gb]

[STA-CITE]> 4th of July and Thanksgiving [END-CITE]I didn't say (or mean to say) they weren't celebrations per se; but they don't have the same scope of celebration. I associate 4th of July with fireworks and Thanksgiving with Turkey - and that's pretty much it. Perhaps people develop *personal* traditions. You are right about Christmas and I agree with you, and I think the fact that Christmas is organically turning into a secular celebration (I call it a capitalistic holiday) is often called the "war on Christmas".

[WearThatBallAndChain]

So can I ask how you can see that there is no secular equivalent? I understand that it may not be important celebrations for you, but the 4th and Thanksgiving are important celebrations for other individuals. The previous point seems to contradict your original point. "The oral tradition of mythology, and the surrounding celebrations is something that has no secular equivalent. CMV."

[thats_a_semaphor]

Religion has dominated the cultural history of the society that *I* live in, in terms of traditions and so forth. There are non-religious legal traditions, but I don't think that these are the sorts of celebratory or meaningful traditions that you are referring to. So secular traditions haven't had the chance to flourish as religious traditions have, but that hardly means that thy will not, that as secular-oriented culture gains its own history it will not have something equivalent. I doubt it will ever have something equivalent to *mythology*, but it might have stories of discovery or morality from historical events - I mean, look at the narrative and character injected into pop-sci books such as Simon Singh's *Big Bang*. I can't speak for other cultures, though. Some of Buddhism is seen as a philosophical culture and not a religious culture, and similarly some of Confucianism, and they are steeped in tradition and traditional celebration.

[howbigis1gb]

Oh - it is my fervent hope that secular traditions *do* flourish. I would like nothing better. I love me some celebration. You're right about mythology and such - I do think it demands a bit of reverence - or rather - that's one of the reasons why it is so successful. Buddhists too have some local celebrations - but I'm not too well versed in them.

[Crayshack]

[STA-CITE]>It's kind of like a fan convention [END-CITE]That is exactly what it is like. Comic-Con has taken on the role of mass pilgrimages for many people, and the varying versions of the stories of the heroes they love is just like the oral tradition of ancient mythologies. [STA-CITE]>Thanksgiving is based on questionable grounds and is - in my opinion - rather dull. [END-CITE][STA-CITE]>No; not 4th of July. [END-CITE]That funny because these are the two holidays that are most important to me. Thanksgiving is a time of gathering the whole family together with close friends and having a massive feast. The history of the holiday and the origin of the traditions isn't key for me, it is the celebration itself. 4th of July is the day I dedicate to celebrating fire. I am a pyromaniac, and I consider fire to be the key thing that separates us from the other animals. Having a convenient holiday which is typically celebrated with fire makes it easy to make that the day that I celebrate fire. Because this is also supposed to be America's birthday, I also supplement my setting off explosives on my driveway with small amounts of a very American liquor, [Rum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rum#Colonial_America). [STA-CITE]>Perhaps you can say Halloween, but it is a very exclusionary holiday (kids trick or treat, teens are in some weird limbo, college kids go crazy and it is less accepting of older people). [END-CITE]Depending on who you define it, [Halloween has religious origins.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween#History)

[howbigis1gb]

[STA-CITE]>Depending on who you define it, Halloween has religious origins [END-CITE]Perhaps, but in this case I am largely uninterested in it because it is not something we typically associate with it. [STA-CITE]>I am a pyromaniac [END-CITE]Nothing to say here - woohoo! Me too. [STA-CITE]>That is exactly what it is like. Comic-Con has taken on the role of mass pilgrimages for many people, and the varying versions of the stories of the heroes they love is just like the oral tradition of ancient mythologies. [END-CITE]Yes - but they're very limited in scope and expensive and exclusionary from both directions (meaning many people have disdain for con-goers, and fandom can get very rabid). Don't get me wrong - I love cons, but it just doesn't have the same accessibility as religious festivals. Perhaps I was wrong about 4th of July and Thanksgiving (and I find the history of occupation behind it which isn't acknowledged unsettling). But in a sense - if I was to cheer for a particular team - I am unsure if I will cheer for "team secular celebrations" because at the moment they just don't seem to compare.

[Crayshack]

[STA-CITE]>exclusionary from both directions (meaning many people have disdain for con-goers, and fandom can get very rabid) [END-CITE]Religious celebrations are the exact same way. They are for members of the organisation and not for people outside of it. People outside of the group can have a disdain for those within, and people within can have a disdain for those outside. [STA-CITE]>I find the history of occupation behind it which isn't acknowledged unsettling [END-CITE]You can't escape that kind of history int he US, because the entire history of the country is built on it. I would like to point out that the idea behind Thanksgiving is cooperation between the natives and the colonists, even if that idea did not win out in practice. [STA-CITE]>I am unsure if I will cheer for "team secular celebrations" because at the moment they just don't seem to compare. [END-CITE]That's because it is so new. For a long time all of human culture was dominated by religion. The concept of secular culture is a rather new one and hasn't had the time to fully develop in the same way that religion has. If we refuse to give it support it never will, but if we do support secular celebrations and traditions, they will thrive with time.

[howbigis1gb]

[STA-CITE]>Religious celebrations are the exact same way. They are for members of the organisation and not for people outside of it. People outside of the group can have a disdain for those within, and people within can have a disdain for those outside. [END-CITE]Except I don't believe that where there is a pluralistic culture (I grew up in India) religious festivals are exclusionary. They are very welcoming and are successful for exactly that reason. Again - I don't think this is true of Christmas either. [STA-CITE]>You can't escape that kind of history int he US, because the entire history of the country is built on it. I would like to point out that the idea behind Thanksgiving is cooperation between the natives and the colonists, even if that idea did not win out in practice. [END-CITE]Well; that's a completely different debate that veers into different territory. I do believe however that it is only recently that the history is even being addressed seriously on a popular basis. [STA-CITE]>That's because it is so new. For a long time all of human culture was dominated by religion. The concept of secular culture is a rather new one and hasn't had the time to fully develop in the same way that religion has. If we refuse to give it support it never will, but if we do support secular celebrations and traditions, they will thrive with time. [END-CITE]Oh no - I completely agree. I would like to throw my support behind secular celebrations - but I don't see any that are good candidates for such such a competition (as yet).

[Crayshack]

[STA-CITE]> Except I don't believe that where there is a pluralistic culture (I grew up in India) religious festivals are exclusionary. They are very welcoming and are successful for exactly that reason. > Again - I don't think this is true of Christmas either. [END-CITE]I didn't celebrate Christmas or Easter (the extent of my knowledge of Christian holidays) growing up. Aside from other Jews, no one I knew celebrated Chanukah, Purim, Sukkot, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, or Passover. Religious holidays have always seemed to me to be for the people of that religion only.