WMN: t3_1vc1ju_t1_cer2ra3

[TITLE]

90% of self described "introverts" are just self absorbed children who have no social skills because they've spent the last decade texting. CMV.

[MKorostoff]

This new and increasingly trite fad of listing rules for dealing with supposed introverts is pointless and not doing any good. Introvert advocates think they're making a novel point about a problem unique to them, when in reality *everyone* confronts social anxiety to one degree or another. I'm pretty sure this introvert revolution started with [Quiet](http://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/dp/0307352153/) by Susan Cain—quite good I'm told—but has devolved into buzzfeed lists of [things only introverts will understand](http://www.buzzfeed.com/erinlarosa/problems-only-introverts-will-understand). Here is a summary of my reasons for believing that "introverts" are not an actual class of people, and don't deserve special treatment: * **The dichotomy is false**. Practically no one is all the way an introvert or all the way an extrovert. I'm one of the most extroverted, outgoing people that I know and guess what? Sometimes I just want a little "me time." By dividing and categorizing people this way we're just individualizing a set of problems that are really universal to the human experience. * **The label authorizes laziness**. Imagine this: it's 9:30pm on a Friday night. You're not planning on going out. Suddenly your phone buzzes, and it's your friend—s/he's planning to drive over an hour to some huge mega party, and wants you to come. How do you feel about that? I think most of us would feel a little apprehensive about it, and maybe even search for some excuse not to go. Dare I say, most of us *wouldn't* go. But some portion of us suck it up and lace our boots, and go out into the world to have great experiences. Not because we are wild and carefree and meld effortlessly into any social situation, but because we know that waiting for experience to come knocking down your door is the same as waiting for death. We go *in spite* of our inclination to just stay in and browse reddit because life is outdoors. Because the the world begins where your comfort zone ends. Because there's 7 billion beautiful, disgusting, needy, incomprehensible, brilliant, frustrating people out there waiting to be met. In the words of Dave Eggers: [STA-CITE]>*"No" is for wimps. "No" is for pussies. "No" is to live small and embittered, cherishing the opportunities you missed because they might have sent the wrong message.... It is a fuckload of work to be open-minded and generous and understanding and forgiving and accepting, but Christ, that is what matters. What matters is saying yes.* [END-CITE]* **The term is meaningless**. No one can seem to agree just what an introvert even is. Seriously look at that buzzfeed article I linked above. Is there a single list item that you can't relate to? It's just become such a dilute, catch-all expression that basically anyone who has any emotions at all can grab onto it. And any time you do try to put a definition on it, there's a chorus of voices correcting supposed "myths" about introverts ([introverts are not shy, introverts love to talk](http://www.carlkingdom.com/10-myths-about-introverts#.UtdRZmST540), etc). * **The term pointlessly shifts the burden in social situations onto "extroverts"**. You're made uncomfortable by talking? Well I'm made uncomfortable by silence. (I'm not actually, it's just an example). I guess I'm automatically a bad guy because I have a different social appetite than you. I would honestly like if this view changed, because it does kind of make me seem like a jerk, I realize. So someone please CMV! *Edit:* Something that's getting a weird amount of attention is my reference to buzzfeed. I'm kind of surprised I have to point this out, but this post is principally concerned with *people who identify as introverts* not the academic, clinically accurate definition of introversion. And people who identify as introverts are largely relying on shallow, low quality, content mill type sources to bemoan their plight. If the buzzfeed version of introversion—which by the way has a million likes, 180k shares, and 5.5 million views—differs significantly for a more clinical, measured definition, if anything that bolsters my view. There's some number of people who are exceptionally introverted by a rigorous standard? Fine. They're the 10 percent.

[tehzeroFIN]

I have no social anxiety (also i'm not the most social person) but i'm an introvert, i have friends and have fun with them but most of the time i just want to be by myself. I have a friend who i've known since 5 and i spend time with him weekly (living different towns atm) and there are times when he comes over that i would like him just leave. [STA-CITE]>Imagine this: it's 9:30pm on a Friday night. You're not planning on going out. Suddenly your phone buzzes, and it's your friend—s/he's planning to drive over an hour to some huge mega party, and wants you to come. How do you feel about that? [END-CITE]In all honesty, i would decline and spend my evening with the 2nd a song of ice and fire book i recently ordered, i have been in "parties" though, my friend who i mentioned earlier had high school dance after party and invited me in, had great time seeing old friends and drinking, but i wouldn't like to do something like that in almost every weekend.

[eightwebs]

Well for starters kiss.

[TheLadyEve]

Jung's original definition of the introvert/extravert (defined way before electronic communications) has changed somewhat but is pretty much the same today (he had some ideas about mental illness and introversion that were nonsense, but otherwise he made excellent points about the values of both types). It really comes down to a preference for external vs. internal stimulation, which does not, necessarily relate to a lack of social skills. I would actually take a neurological perspective and consider that it might have to do with sensory processing. Extroverted people tend to have greater sensitivity in nucleus accumbens (which relates to pleasure/reward). Introverts react more strongly to pain, to smell--they don't need all that external stimuli and, in fact, are overwhelmed by it. Culturally speaking, in the U.S. I think introverts get a bad rap whereas extroverts are more likely to get praise and attention (on average).

[AlexFromOmaha]

I'm an "all the way" introvert. I avoid crowds because they're tiring, overstimulating, and frustrating. They don't scare me (well, public speaking scares me, but I think that hits extroverts too), so it's not just anxiety. Crowds just make me genuinely unhappy. I don't lack social skills. I have friends. I interview well. I can be charming when I choose to be. My sense of humor is...not for everyone, but makes some people chuckle. I don't just hide behind technology. In fact, I probably don't want to talk to you by cell either unless you have information to convey or are a friend. I don't lack life experiences. I've played with three Olympic athletes, built some really cool stuff with other people, gotten published, and have a job I generally enjoy that allows me to work with people from all sorts of backgrounds. I find the idea that life only happens at parties to be somewhat myopic. If most of your stories start with "This one time, I was drunk/high/at this wild party, and...", you're probably the one missing out. I don't shift burden onto extroverts. The social rules were written by extroverts because they were the ones who showed up to that meeting. It's cool that there's some popular acknowledgement of our internal workings, kinda like it's cool how we let them uppity niggers vote now. Your rules still suck, you're still an asshole, and we still abide by them because we really don't have the leverage to do otherwise. I forgive you for being an asshole, though. You don't realize you're doing it and probably don't know better. In fact, it's almost never an actual "burden" on you so much you looking the other way so we can opt out. No one wants a crowd of extroverts to start treating each other like introverts. That's silly. On the other hand, there's significant pressure every day for me to pretend I'm an extrovert. Furthermore, the term is not meaningless. It's more likely that you, being an asshole, don't know how to identify us except by our lower functioning peers. I'm not shy, but some introverts are, just like some extroverts are. I don't really like to talk, but some introverts do, just like some extroverts are happy listening. You also assert that I represent a tiny minority. This is not the case. By the clinical definition, roughly 25% of the population is introverted. It's also not a skills problem for that 25% - twin studies indicate that it's at least partially genetic. Not all introverts are as introverted as I am, but that doesn't mean we write them off as "fake" introverts, just like less enthusiastic people aren't fake extroverts.

[jsmooth7]

[STA-CITE]>The dichotomy is false. [END-CITE]Introversion and Extroversion are on a sliding scale, and people can fall anywhere in between. They aren't all-or-nothing categories. [STA-CITE]>The label authorizes laziness. [END-CITE]No, people just have different preferences. Perhaps (for example) an introverted person wold prefer to go on a long hike with a friend then go to a mega all-day party where he (or she) doesn't know many people. Clearly, a lazy person would prefer not to go on a long hike. [STA-CITE]>The term is meaningless. [END-CITE]No, again it's just different preferences. People who are more introverted will prefer less frequent social interaction, or smaller social settings. It's definitely not that they don't like social interaction. For most people, it's incredibly lonely and depressing having no social interaction at all. It's hard to pin down an exact definition because people are complex, and some people will probably have differing opinions on what exactly the introversion/extroversion scale should measure. I should mention that some people might be introverted *and* shy or have social anxiety as well, but that's not part of the definition. The different between introverted and extroverted people is simply just a preference, whereas people with social anxiety experience fear (or even a fight or flight response) in certain social situations. Social anxiety can be debilitating and is a serious problem. Introversion on the other hand is not a problem. [STA-CITE]> The term pointlessly shifts the burden in social situations onto "extroverts". [END-CITE]This is not the case. Introverted people don't need special treatment, and they should be able to handle social situations fine. Introversion is not a good excuse for poor social skills, in my opinion.

[Daedalus1907]

[STA-CITE]>but has devolved into buzzfeed lists of things only introverts will understand[2] . [END-CITE]Buzzfeed is idiotic no matter what topic it covers. To use it as a source for anything is beyond anything. [STA-CITE]>Introversion is "the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life".[4] Some popular writers have characterized introverts as people whose energy tends to expand through reflection and dwindle during interaction.[5] This is similar to Jung's view, although he focused on mental energy rather than physical energy. Few modern conceptions make this distinction. [END-CITE][Source](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introversion) An introvert is not somebody who is shy or has social anxiety. They are two completely different things.

[starving_grad]

That's the definition of *introversion*. The same source, Merriam Webster, defines an *introvert* as "a shy person : a quiet person who does not find it easy to talk to other people." That pretty much negates your second point.

[Daedalus1907]

That's obviously not the context that OP is talking about since he brought up Quiet. In the context of the discussion, it is imperative to differentiate between shyness/social anxiety and introversion

[starving_grad]

It's okay to be wrong sometimes.

[Suituy]

Why does having great experiences have to mean going out in the world and being with people? Maybe that's what it means for you. I have great experiences at home, by myself(no, not browsing Reddit. Reading novels, cooking, learning to knit, pondering the nature of life, etc.) I have a lot of fun doing these things, probably as much fun as you have with your great experiences. And how are these things lazy? The term shifts the burden on to extroverts because introverts are in the minority.

[Nepene]

[STA-CITE]>quite good I'm told—but has devolved into buzzfeed lists of things only introverts will understand[2] The existence of bad articles on buzzfeed doesn't say anything about introverts. [END-CITE][STA-CITE]>Practically no one is all the way an introvert or all the way an extrovert. [END-CITE]Which is why there are introversion and extroversion scales. http://www.jamescmccroskey.com/measures/introversion.htm For example. [STA-CITE]>By dividing and categorizing people this way we're just individualizing a set of problems that are really universal to the human experience. [END-CITE]People like to categorize themselves and others. You for example categorize introvert as self absorbed children who have no social skills. [STA-CITE]>Imagine this: it's 9:30pm on a Friday night. You're not planning on going out. Suddenly your phone buzzes, and it's your friend—s/he's planning to drive over an hour to some huge mega party, and wants you to come. [END-CITE]I've gone to mega parties. I don't tend to enjoy them. That's why I mostly have friends who invite me to small, intimate events. I've certainly had other extroverted friends not really want to go to these smaller events when there's beer to be drunk and parties to go to. It's not really a great surprise that people say no to doing things they don't enjoy. You probably say no to lots of things you don't enjoy. [STA-CITE]>The term is meaningless. No one can seem to agree just what an introvert even is. [END-CITE]If you try to find meaning in buzzfeed, yes. Try wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion [STA-CITE]>And any time you do try to put a definition on it, there's a chorus of voices correcting supposed "myths" about introverts (introverts are not shy, introverts love to talk[3] ,etc). [END-CITE]Perhaps because you are relying on buzzfeed for your definitions. From wikipedia, an introvert is drained by large scale social events. They are fine talking to close friends, and don't necessarily fear social interaction, just don't enjoy it. [STA-CITE]>The term pointlessly shifts the burden in social situations onto "extroverts". You're made uncomfortable by talking? Well I'm made uncomfortable by silence. [END-CITE]So when people have different preferences from you you feel you are being pressured? [STA-CITE]>I guess I'm automatically a bad guy because I have a different social appetite than you. [END-CITE]If you force someone to do something they don't enjoy, yeah. You should respect other's happiness.

[Crayshack]

[STA-CITE]>"introverts" are not an actual class of people, and don't deserve special treatment [END-CITE]Outside of a few crazy people on Tumblr, no one is asking for special treatment. What we want is the acknowledgement that some people have different ways that they experience social interaction. [STA-CITE]>The dichotomy is false. [END-CITE]No one claims there is a hard dichotomy, but rather that it is a spectrum. Most people fall somewhere in the middle and (with a few exceptions at the extremes) when they use the terms introvert or extrovert they are using them as relative terms to the average or a fixed reference point (such as "I'm more introverted than Sally.") [STA-CITE]>Imagine this: it's 9:30pm on a Friday night. You're not planning on going out. Suddenly your phone buzzes, and it's your friend—s/he's planning to drive over an hour to some huge mega party, and wants you to come. How do you feel about that? I think most of us would feel a little apprehensive about it, and maybe even search for some excuse not to go. Dare I say, most of us wouldn't go. But some portion of us suck it up and lace our boots, and go out into the world to have great experiences. Not because we are wild and carefree and meld effortlessly into any social situation, but because we know that waiting for experience to come knocking down your door is the same as waiting for death. We go in spite of our inclination to just stay in and browse reddit because life is outdoors. Because the the world begins where your comfort zone ends. Because there's 7 billion beautiful, disgusting, needy, incomprehensible, brilliant, frustrating people out there waiting to be met. [END-CITE]You assume that the people are the only thing out in the world to see. When I explore the world it is were there are very little or no people. An untouched beach, a wildlife preserve, a mountain top, or even out in the middle of a lake are all places I love to go when I am out int he world, and none of them need people there to be fun. [STA-CITE]>The term is meaningless. [END-CITE]It is a term for an abstract concept, so of course it will be difficult to find a definition for everyone to agree on. A proper definition could probably fill an entire book, but the best description I have heard is that extroverts gain energy from social contact, while introverts spend energy for social contact. This means that an introvert can get exhausted from an afternoon with friends, while an extrovert might get exhausted from an afternoon spent by themselves. [STA-CITE]>The term pointlessly shifts the burden in social situations onto "extroverts". [END-CITE]The point isn't to shift the burden, but to acknowledge that different people experience the same things in different ways. You can't assume that everyone will react the same way to everything that you do, just like you wouldn't like if some people acted like they thought you would react to some things the way they would. Keep in mind, treat others the way you want to be treated doesn't work for Sadomasochists. And finally, in my experience, introverted people actually text less than extroverts. Texting is social contact just as much as talking in person, so doing it all day can be draining. I very rarely text anyone, and if someone texts me I usually take a few hours to respond if I respond at all.

[funchy]

I believe myself to be an introvert. I am so old that I grew up before texting or the Web as we know it today. The claim that texting makes people more introverted does not hold up, if you look at history. Even as a small child, I preferred to play alone a lot. Or I would play one on one with the same few friends. Long before I knew what "introvert" meant, I was naturally showing those tendencies. I avoided social sitiations. I didn't like big groups or strangers. I found it exhaustive and stressful. Alone I could always find a million ways to amuse myself. I wish I wasn't an introvert. I've even gone so far as to talk about it with a therapist. I've learned ways to manage the discomfort or tiring feelings that go with having to talk to people, but I still do not enjoy it. It's just how I am. It would be like me trying to make you love Brussels sprouts if it was your least favorite food and the smell made you sick -- some people just struggle to like certain things and all the wishing in the world won't change innate tendencies. I wish I did enjoy parties. I have tried small talk and mingling, but I end up exhausted after a night of being Socially Akward Penguin. I wish I could go to a block party or big holiday bash and enjoy myself. I can (and have) forced myself to go. But it simply isn't enjoyable usually. To say these parties have potential for "great experiences" would imply I enjoyed what went on. I'm sorry you can't understand how someone with introvert tendencies feels. But your lack of understanding does not make the tendencies vanish. My feelings, even if you can't understand them, are still my feelings and as such are still valid. I don't expect others to follow a set of rules when interacting with me. All I ask is you don't take in personally if I want to leave a crowded party after an hour or to? Or that you'd understand I enjoy one on one time with you so much more than coming over when you and ten of your buddies are playing poker. People with introvert tendencies do want to be friends. We just enjoy it more in smaller doses.

[MKorostoff]

∆ There's some aspects of my view that I retain, but you've certainly softened my stance. My original premise implicitly includes the notion that some portion of self-described introverts are just that (10 percent to be exact) and clearly you're one of them. But of course that number—and any number—is just pulled out of thin air. As you point out, I can't know how others feel, so I suppose there's little else to do besides take them at there word. That said, I would be interested to get your opinion on a few core aspects of my view that I think you've left rather untouched: * **Authenticity**. As I said, you've persuaded me that authentic introversion is likely much more pervasive than I had originally contemplated. Or, at very least, that I have no rational basis to claim otherwise. But can we agree that there is *some* non-zero number of people who do not experience introversion in any meaningful sense yet still use the label due to its momentary popularity. Let's say this number is very small, 0.5% lets say (I still suspect it's more, but it would be pointless to speculate the actual value). As a true introvert, how do you feel about such people? * **Rule following**. I applaud you for taking the stance that you don't require special treatment, but do you at least acknowledge that some are looking for precisely that? Perhaps the most widely reposted media in this whole discussion is precisely that, [a comic listing rules for dealing with introverts](http://imgur.com/0ZDMw3h). Not to mention [this far more imposing set of requirements](http://imgur.com/C6528rg) which I've also seen reposted many times. How do you feel about introverts who request this treatment?

[dukeofdummies]

[STA-CITE]>Authenticity [END-CITE]My opinion on authenticity is the same for just about every other thing a person can be. If they're bragging about it and bring it up without any prompting, I'm skeptical. This goes for introversion, nerdness, man of simple needs, god fearing Christian, clutz, and technical technician-ness. It's not really something to be proud of, it's like a chair. It's there... I could talk about it if you want, but there are so many other topics out there. There are so many other things you could be proud of. The only thing I haven't seen this work on is musical ability. You're never going to be able to figure out a number for number of "extroverted introverts", but if you actually understand how an introvert feels, when you finally find one (or think you found one) you can use that knowledge to connect better. That's the real goal of those comics. [STA-CITE]>rule following [END-CITE]Play it by ear, if they just wanna go outside for a bit then let them. The problem isn't that an introvert is incapable of behaving like an extrovert. I go to a party every once and awhile. I just can't keep up for even half as long as the rest. I have friends who can party every night of every week. I just can't, even every other night is taxing for me. It's a 9-5 job trying to follow a group, half the time I feel far more like an explorer examining a native tribe. Even then, I am not a part of the party. I'm on the side connecting with the smaller groups. (preferably the smallest group I can find) Because I can talk 1 on 1 all night if you let me.

[DeltaBot]

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[DocMcNinja]

[STA-CITE]> you don't require special treatment, but do you at least acknowledge that some are looking for precisely that? Perhaps the most widely reposted media in this whole discussion is precisely that, a comic listing rules for dealing with introverts. Not to mention this far more imposing set of requirements [END-CITE]Hold on, what? Those comic things, those are not "requiring special treatment". It's just "if you want to understand/emphatise/get along with/make friends with an introvert, consider this". It's not "requiring special treatment" to try to spread awareness and tell people how one prefers to be interacted with. Others don't have to abide, it's just that they shouldn't then wonder why an introvert does not seem to respond positively when their preferences are violated. Those comics and their kin are response to a constant stream of reactions like "Why don't you go out more often?" that introverts get to face in their daily life. They are an attempt to get non-introverts to understand what's going on and what to do if you want to get positive results when interacting with introverts. If I like it when people throw bananas at me, and easily connect with and get along with people who throw bananas at me, you don't get to tell me I'm "requiring special treatment" if I say I'd prefer being thrown bananas at me. I just have a different set of preferences than you. I'm not "requiring" anything. You are within your rights to not throw bananas at me if you prefer, just as I can elect to stay away from you and seek the company of people who *do* throw bananas at me.

[growflet]

[STA-CITE]> a comic listing rules for dealing with introverts [END-CITE]What exactly is wrong with that "far more imposing set of requirements". I read that list as basic politeness that you should do to anyone, introvert or extrovert alike

[kitolz]

Even if your statement in the title is true, those people would still be introverts. Being an introvert doesn't mean that one can't also be socially awkward or a raging asshole, so maybe it's just that. You don't have to adjust to anyone apart from adhering to general politeness, but you may choose to do so anyway to be a better friend to people you know. What would be the point of extroverts claiming to be introverts? Being alone would cause the first group anxiety to be alone for long periods of time. If one prefers to be alone, isn't that the definition of introversion?

[mbevks]

[STA-CITE]> I applaud you for taking the stance that you don't require special treatment, but do you at least acknowledge that some are looking for precisely that? [END-CITE]Not always, but generally, I feel that such "rules for dealing with introverts" are advice for getting the best results, not a yearning for special treatment. I'm an introvert. Treat me in a certain way, you are going to get better results. Treat me in another way and I'll be pissed off at you for making my evening suck. But if you play it right, you'll build a great friendship, business relationship, or whatever relationship you are looking for -- and hopefully the advice sets you in that direction.

[NOODLECODE]

Those rules are so dumb. I'm sick of that introverted comic being reposted over and over, treating "introverts" as some fragile porcelain dolls to be coddled and handled carefully. Make sure you don't shout too loud. You might shatter our delicate introverted sensibilities with all of that extroversion. No wonder you have a negative perception of so-called introverts if you're basing it off those things. I have to admit that I do see a lot of people that confuse introversion with social anxiety. With all of the recent talk about how it's "okay" to be introverted, I think a lot of socially anxious people have latched onto the label as an excuse to avoid working on their problems. I decided not to go to a party. I wasn't nervous about it. Nor was I lazy. I just don't like parties, the same way I don't like mangos. I've been to a lot of parties and eaten a lot of mangos, and I gotta say, they don't really do it for me. I fulfil my social needs in other ways.

[haikuginger]

[STA-CITE]> I think a lot of socially anxious people have latched onto the label as an excuse to avoid working on their problems. [END-CITE]I think this is key.