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[TITLE]

I believe it is impossible for someone to love an adopted child as much as they love their biological child, CMV

[pipeandtweed]

I recently went to an event about Chinese orphanages and the Chinese adoption system. There was a large number of adopted Chinese girls in attendance. While I am glad that these girls now have wanting and loving families, I can't help but feel (strongly) that their adoptive families will never love them as much as their biological child(ren), because I think it is human nature/biology to feel an un-replicable bond with your biological child. I am not an adopted child, nor an adoptive parent, nor do I know anybody who is either. I am Chinese, and perhaps my views on familial exclusivity has only a cultural basis.

[anayn]

There are many people who have no desire to procreate but could see themselves adopting children as well as many who have adopted and have no desire to have biological children and love their child(ren) as any biological parent loves their child(ren). If someone does decide to adopt in addition to having biological children it is because they want that child and they want to be a parent to them. Being a parent comes with loving them as well as caring for them. It is entirely possible to love an adopted child as your own and proving the opposite would be impossible.

[bentzi]

Let's say two babies are switched at birth in the hospital by accident. Luckily both babies or of the same race, so it isn't too obvious. In that case, each family has a baby that they believe is theirs, but not biologically. Do you believe that these babies are loved any less than if the mistake didn't occur?

[pipeandtweed]

Then again, in the The American Life episode I linked, one of the mothers instinctively *knew that the baby was not hers, while the other mother did not suspect anything. Since, it's only two people, and one in each camp, I can't say that there exists some kind of bond between most mothers and their new borns. But the fact that one mother did feel that she was given the wrong child proves that the bond does exist, however rarely.

[pipeandtweed]

Interesting...reminds me of this This American Life episode: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/360/switched-at-birth I'm conflicted now...I'm leaning more towards the *knowing that the baby is yours being the activation agent in the special bond that exists between a mother and who she *believes is her baby. If her baby is switched without her knowing, then she could easily love that child as much as if the child was biological to her. Then this would dismantle the idea that biology as anything to do with the special bond I believe exists between a mother and who she thinks is her biological child. Then, to update my view, I believe there is something psychological that occurs within a mother who *knows that her child came from her, carries her genes, so on. And it is this knowledge that activates a level of love that would be left unactivated if she *knew that her child did not come from her, but instead came from a stranger.

[bentzi]

lol...that was the point of the counter argument i brought up. now, since you accept that biology isn't the determining factor in loving a kid, than isn't in conceivable that in some situation parents can love their adopted child as much as a biological child, despite knowing the truth? How about a loving married couple who can not conceive for some reason or another, wouldn't having a kid (Even adopted) make them the happiest couple ever, and love the kid as much as a biological one? Again, I'm not saying it's the case for every single adopted kid. But since you chose to phrase your view with a universality to it, all i need is to demonstrate one counter example, to CYV, right?

[pipeandtweed]

∆ Yes, you're right. Since my view was that it would be impossible for any parent to love an adopted child as much as their biological child, I now agree that it is possible for some parents to love their adopted child as much as their biological child. You've changed my view from "impossible" to "unlikely, but possible."

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[Sputnikcosmonot]

The way I see it is this. You love your partner right? They're not biologically related to you, but you love them none the less. I think it's similar with adopted kids(especially if they were adopted as babies).

[setsumaeu]

If I have an adopted child and a biological child, maybe my biological child is a huge pain, gets in trouble, doesn't listen to me, etc. My adopted child is a great kid, smart, follows the rules, really sweet. I could love my adopted child more than my biological child.

[pipeandtweed]

Are you saying that the love of a parent is not unconditional towards their children? In your example it seems the love for a child is very conditional, based on how they behave. And this tangentially makes me think--if you are raising your children the same, and your biological children are more baldy behaved than your adopted children, wouldn't that be pointing to something in their genes that makes them less cooperative towards you? Anyway that's off point, just thought I'd ask.

[setsumaeu]

You brought up the idea of degrees of love in your post. You've said it's impossible to feel a greater degree of love for an adopted child, I've given a situation where it is plausible.

[Higgs_Bosun]

I think part of the question I have is how you define love? Do you mean a certain range of feelings of pride, joy, happiness, friendship, and security towards an individual? Or do you mean love as a verb, as in the actions that one takes towards an individual? With each child, adopted or otherwise, parents will feel different amounts of feelings, and will have different reactions. Some parents and children don't get along well at all, despite being incredibly similar, and some parents and children get along very well despite being dissimilar. I don't have any empirical information on parents and adopted kids, but I'm sure that there's a similar connection, especially once they've been in the family for a while. IF you're describing love as an action, then I'd argue that it's quite possible for someone to intentionally treat their birth children and their adopted children in the same way. It would require that the parents be quite self-aware, and self-critical, but I wouldn't imagine that if a person were committed to an adopted child that they could treat them with as much love as they treat their child. Anecdotally, I am friends with a family, and their kids basically moved out of the house at 20 and 18 respectively, and by that point were completely estranged. The parents adopted 2 new kids, who are now in their teens, and their relationship is far better than with their original kids. By any objective measure, I'd say that they love their adopted kids greater than their bio-kids.

[hacksoncode]

Impossible is a very strong word to use. But I have one hard to argue question to ask: In the case of every single adoption that has ever occurred for voluntary reasons on the part of the biological and adoptive parents, isn't that evidence that the biological parent didn't want to raise the child and that the adoptive parent *did*? This would seem to completely rule out your view that it's impossible, simply on the face of it. Now, if you mean something different, like "if a parent has both a biological and adopted parent, they would love the biological child more", there might be a slightly plausible argument that could be made. But the entire existence of adoption as a cultural phenomenon demonstrates that people can love/want children more than their biological parents did.

[pipeandtweed]

I don't think the existence of adoption rules out the possibility of loving an adopted child less than your biological child. Love is not all or nothing. I am talking about adoptive parents having great love for their adopted children, but just not being biologically able to love that adoptive child *as much as their biological children. Given this it makes for the possibility that an adoptive parent could love their adopted baby enough to not abandon it, and the possibility that the biological mother did not love the baby enough to keep the boy/girl, thereby creating adoption as a cultural phenomenon. On the flip side, given the reality that most abandoned babies in China are due to poverty, it could very well be that the biological mother gave up the baby with great suffering, because she loved the baby enough to be selfless and give her child a better future.

[hacksoncode]

I don't think it rules it out either. However, I think it proves that it's not *impossible* that a parent could love an adopted child more than the biological parent did. I think it would be naive to ascribe great love for the biological child in *all* cases. Or that adoptive parents do not have great love for their children. It is particularly suspicious that so many of these children given up for adoption were girls, in a culture that is purported to not value girls as highly.

[chewingofthecud]

[STA-CITE]> In the case of every single adoption that has ever occurred for voluntary reasons on the part of the biological and adoptive parents, isn't that evidence that the biological parent didn't want to raise the child and that the adoptive parent did? [END-CITE]It's worth pointing out that you are comparing person A's love for a child with person B's love for that same child. I assume that the OP was hoping to compare the same person's love for child A vs. for child B.

[hacksoncode]

Agreed. But the point is that there are examples of biological parents whose desire to raise their own child is less then a non biological parent's desire to raise them. It's statistically unlikely that all people would therefore consider blood links to be more important than desire to raise the child. Hence, saying that it is impossible is counter to the evidence.

[Arudin88]

[STA-CITE]>If a parent has both a biological and adopted parent, they would love the biological child more [END-CITE]This is the argument OP is making

[CarnivorousGiraffe]

The birth process can help the mother to form a bond with her infant more easily and more quickly. If a woman were to give birth to one child and adopt a second child that same day, for those first few days your assumption may be correct. She may actually feel a stronger "love" for the child she gave birth to. But here's the thing: that initial hormonal attachment doesn't last. That's a little jump start for the real thing. The real "love" is based on a relationship. I don't love my kids because of those first few days of snuggling. I love them because of who they are now. I love my toddler because he breaks into dance with his shadow when he's bored and because of his intense conversations with his legos. I love my daughter because of her passion and because of the way she cares about other people. I love them now because of who they are now. If I had missed those first few days with one of my children because someone else had carried them and given birth to them, I would not love them less. It may have taken me longer to fall in love with them, but it would have happened. There's just something that happens to you when that sweet little face looks up at you with complete trust and dependence, no matter how they got there. As a sidenote, my close friend was adopted and I know people who have had children both biologically and through adoption. Those parents love their children equally, and it seems arrogant to assert that all these parents are liars.

[pipeandtweed]

Thank you for your input as a mother. Just to clarify, I'm not asserting that these parents are liars should they insist that they truly love their biological and adoptive children equally, just that I believe it is more likely for a mother to love her biological children more, for biological/psychological reasons. I guess I *am assuming that people have kids for mainly self-serving reasons, and I'm not making a value judgement on those reasons, I don't think they are selfish. Only that people have a biological impulse to recreate, pass on their genes, and this primitive drive is layered with the conscious desire to create from themselves, or to create a being that embodies the union of themselves and the person they love. I mean, if there is no difference between the potential love felt for a biological and adopted child, why do most people try to have their own children first, and see adoption as a last resort?

[CarnivorousGiraffe]

[STA-CITE]> I mean, if there is no difference between the potential love felt for a biological and adopted child, why do most people try to have their own children first, and see adoption as a last resort? [END-CITE]Lots of reasons! Private adoption is expensive. Public adoption is tedious. Plus, in many places, birth parents have a long period of time in which they can change their minds about relinquishing rights to the child. So you can adopt a baby, bond with and love that baby, and then face the possibility of losing your child at the whims of the birth parent. For those that are able to conceive themselves, it can be less stressful. Also, biological babies are often unplanned. You can't accidentally adopt a baby, but it happens pretty frequently that people who want a baby *someday* have a baby *today* because of an oops. And another big difference in method of acquiring a child is the experience itself. Many women actually want to experience pregnancy and birth, not because it will make them love their children more, but because it's a unique experience in itself. And, some people really do just want to pass on their own genes because they think they have an awesome genetic contribution to make to the gene pool. I think most people sort of have this fantasy that their kids will be like them. But you know what? My kids are genetically my offspring, and they are soooo different from me. The real people that they are don't resemble the imaginary kids I dreamed of having at all. (They're actually much better!) People have different reasons for wanting to adopt or conceive a child, but none of those reasons really have anything to do with the actual love that they will feel for a real living child. There's so much more to raising a child than passing on genetic material. What you put in on a daily basis through parenting has such an enormous effect on who your child will be. The love that you pour into your child will shape them as much as their genetic material does. My adopted friend is so much like her mother sometimes in the expressions she makes, the way she talks, her mannerisms. An adopted child can "inherit" so much from her parents just by spending her developing years with them.

[maxpenny42]

I don't have any kids but have no interest in biological children. I don't want to procreate. But I could see adopting one day. I think the idea of passing on your genes is outdated. We as humans have overcome many if not most biological problems that would make it necessary to try to pass on "good" genes. To pass on a living legacy in the modern era you need to pass on ideas. It is the morals, rituals, traditions, and experiences that you impart on kids that determine your legacy. I don't want kids that look like me. I want kids who think like me.

[thats_a_semaphor]

What if a parent with a biological child and an adopted child claimed to you that they loved them equally? (Say the children weren't present and you wouldn't have the chance to ever communicate them.) Would you disbelieve her (or him)? How would you show that your claim is wrong? I suspect that you couldn't disprove her claim - in fact, I believe that you couldn't even come up with a sufficient piece of evidence. I think that your argument is based upon your gut feeling, or an incredulity that someone could feel this way when you can't imagine it. I think, though, that if the parent were sincerely and emotionally making this claim to you, that you would believe them.

[Joined_Today]

Well, for starters "love" isn't exactly quantifiable. You can't put the adopted parents and the biological parents on a scale and measure their levels of love output towards the child. Children and their mothers usually form a bond through oxytocin, a chemical released during and after childbirth which stimulates feelings of bonding. However, this doesn't guarantee that the biological parents will love the child any more than some stranger off the sidewalk. You can prove that biological parents *should* be more attached to their child if we're to believe the science behind oxytocin and the other chemicals/hormones released during childbirth that make the parents attached to the baby, but you can't prove that the bond will last beyond the hormonal outburst, nor can you prove that the oxytocin will have the same effect on everyone across the board.

[pipeandtweed]

I think love is quantifiable in the sense that relative love can be ordered on a scale of "most loved" and "least loved." A scale could be produced via a psychological experiment, though such an experiment would be unethical and would never be conducted, since here's the experiment I had in mind: if the mother has two biological and two adopted children, she is forced to save only two children from extreme pain, which two children would she save? To fit my belief into this, I would expect that a significant number of parents would choose to save their biological children over their adoptive children. This would put the adoptive children lower on the love scale than their biological siblings, and quantify that parent's love for his/her children. After writing this I hope that I can be shown that I am wrong about this. It'd be brutal if it were true.

[DHCKris]

You're wrong simply by virtue of the fact that it is **objectively not impossible.** You're not a mind-reader that can probe the emotions of every single adoptive parent in the entire world and make a reasonable judgment as to the content of their affections. THAT is impossible. [STA-CITE]>I think it is human nature/biology to feel an un-replicable bond with your biological child. [END-CITE]So how do you explain estranged parents, abusive parents, and downright narcissistic, unloving parents? I think that biology does play a role, but human beings are also adaptive creatures and complex ones. We can defy biology. We can love whomever we damn please as much as we damn please in the way that we please.

[pipeandtweed]

As a way of judgement, I wouldn't be the one to do it, only the adoptive mother could say what she felt about her biological kids and adopted kids. I just think that, if she where being honest with herself, the mother would agree that she loves her biological kids more than her adoptive kids. To clarify my view, I think there is a special bond, be it chemical or otherwise, that occurs as a result of the pregnancy and/or birthing process. Because this bond is created during those processes, it would be impossible to replicate it with an adopted child. This bond translates into a kind of love, and because the adopted child does not receive this kind of love from their parent, they are loved less.

[gyrfalcons]

[STA-CITE]> I think there is a special bond, be it chemical or otherwise, that occurs as a result of the pregnancy and/or birthing process. Because this bond is created during those processes, it would be impossible to replicate it with an adopted child. This bond translates into a kind of love [END-CITE]I can tell you quite happily that this is total and complete bull, based on one simple thing - [Postpartum Depression](http://www.babycenter.com/0_dont-be-surprised-by-postpartum-depression_1199780.bc). People *hate the shit* out of their babies, can't stand to be around them, feel stressed and angry that they had them, and more. Having babies makes a lot of people thoroughly miserable. Also plenty of abusive parents exist - and a lot of them are also abusive towards their own children. I can cite examples, but these aren't hard to find... In fact, changes do take place - chemical ones - in the body after birth. Here is a relevant quote: [STA-CITE]>Three days after a woman gives birth, her estrogen dips to a level equal to a 65-year-old woman’s level. At that time, infant girls’ estrogen levels are actually higher than their mothers’. This dip in estrogen can cause many postpartum difficulties, including postpartum depression. This is why Greene’s wife—who just gave birth to their daughter, Aevry—is on a low level of estrogen. [END-CITE][STA-CITE]>I was lucky to avoid postpartum depression, but my body nonetheless manifested its hormonal roller-coaster ride in some unseemly and uncomfortable ways. I was tired and stressed—and happy and exhilarated—and the nightly soakings were getting old. Greene says a drop in melatonin levels often causes night sweats. Melatonin helps people stay asleep, but it also causes a couple-degree drop in temperature. When levels are low, new mothers, like me, may experience restless sleeping and spiking temperatures. If night sweats are extreme and not alleviated by dressing in layers, Greene recommends taking Rozerem, a prescription marketed to people with insomnia. [END-CITE](from [here](http://www.divinecaroline.com/life-etc/momhood/hormones-surge-and-crash-after-birth-one-mom-sweats-it-out)) The short of it is, sure, chemical changes, and most of them at best make you kind of annoyed or miserable and at worse make you feel like shit. They don't make you bond magically with your baby. Plus, you're forgetting something - you know what changes occur in the father's body when he's having a kid? That's right. None! It's the mother's body that has the hormone surge and crash, for dads, nothing happens. Sure, you could say that a guy could be very affected by having a kid. On the other hand, how often have you heard of teenage kids who knock up girls and then run like hell and don't really care or don't WANT to know about having a kid, or aren't ready or able to take on the responsibility for one? Some might. Lots just can't. You don't magically become loving bonding parents by having a child, you become good parents by *working* at it. Whether biological or adopted, that sort of effort is necessary. I mean the father thing is sort of a big deal. You're saying something magical occurs when a kid is born. In the mother, changes happen, except it's not what you think and in most cases it kinda sucks, and in the dad... nothing of the sort happens. TL;DR: Your argument about magical birthing bonds is bad.

[DHCKris]

Yes, but as I demonstrated, this bond you speak of either doesn't exist in all cases or isn't as strong as you suggest, because it is absolute fact that there exist parents who downright despise their biological children.

[gyrfalcons]

[STA-CITE]>it is absolute fact that there exist parents who downright despise their biological children. [END-CITE]Or who treat them like crap, or who think that their kids owe them for being born... the list goes on. Frankly, as a kid I actually *dreamed* of my parents dying and getting adopted by another family, because that'd meant that I'd be picked by people who wanted me for being myself, as opposed to people who just wanted *a* kid because having a kid was the sort of thing you did when you were married, and then who ended up with... well, me, instead.