WMN: t3_2b1rwv_t1_cj2a057

[TITLE]

CMV: A group home may be opening near me, and I'm afraid that is will be bad for the neighborhood

[Snedeker]

People in my neighborhood just got notified that a house recently sold to a corporation and they have the intention of turning it into a "group home". We went to a meeting last night to get some details on exactly what that means, and I'm worried that it is going to be very bad for the neighborhood. My concerns are: 1. The company may potentially be moving "dangerous" people into the house. I live in a very quiet residential neighborhood, and the thought of drug addicts being housed near me is disturbing. Even if the residents are well behaved, there is going to be traffic of their "friends" who I'm assuming will be similar in nature. The company won't say who may be living there. It could be just infirm elderly people, but it could also be "sexual predators" for all I know. 2. My house will lose value when people find out that it is near a group home. Even if it isn't logical, I'm assuming that when someone is looking to buy my house they will be put off by the presence of group home nearby. 3. The business buying the house is a tax-free organization. I don't exactly know what that means, but I assume that they won't be paying property taxes. That means that they will be consuming resources but not paying for them, and my share of the community taxes will increase. 4. Even if this particular place only houses people who are complete angels, this will set a precedent and open up the neighborhood for other homes, and there is no guarantee that the other homes will be run as well. So, that's it. I'd love to hear from someone with experience with group homes moving nearby to tell me that all of my concerns are invalid. And, in truth my **real** view is that I *don't know* if my uninformed opinions are correct or not, so if you happen to be able to **confirm** my thoughts I'd consider that to be changing my view as well.

[obi_matt_kenobi]

I know that group homes can do a lot of good for a lot of people. Rehabilitation should be our ultimate goal for them, and they've got to live somewhere. It's quite possible that they would be so well behaved that no one would ever know they were there. Having said all of that, I wouldn't want a group home built in my neighborhood either. It's really a gamble, and it isn't a gamble I would willingly accept. I can only address your first two concerns, as I do not know what type of an impact this could have on property taxes or what effect this "precedent" would have. 1. I would worry about dangerous people as well. If they aren't dangerous, they may run in circles with those who are. 2. I definitely would not buy a home in the neighborhood with this. Would you have purchased your home if the group home had already been there? You never know what you're getting with any new neighbor, but this is a bigger risk than your average neighbor. I would be concerned as well for my safety, my property, and the value of my property.

[Snedeker]

Even if the risk is small it just seems to be completely unfair to be placing it on the neighbors without their consent. The person who sold the house doesn't care because they don't live there anymore. The company doesn't care because they're just in it for the money. The only people who care are the people who don't have any say in the decision.

[karnim]

[STA-CITE]> The company doesn't care because they're just in it for the money [END-CITE]I highly doubt this is the case. If it's a tax-free organization, it's probably either government funded, or a non-profit charity. It might be a not-for-profit company, but I would be surprised if that were the case for a group home.

[Snedeker]

At the meeting the company representative said that they are a 75 Million dollar a year company.

[karnim]

75 million in profits, or 75 million net? In terms of running a business that revolves around taking care of other people, 75 million may not be a particularly surprising number.

[spunkychunkofbutter]

Oh another thing - across the street and three doors down is a group home for people with developmental disabilities. They are delightful neighbors. You couldn't ask for better. But I assume that isn't the "group home" you were discussing.

[Snedeker]

It could be. The problem that I was having was that I really didn't know what was happening, or what the consequences would be. From many of the responses here it appears like my initial worries were unfounded.

[spunkychunkofbutter]

I bought a house in a quiet little neighborhood. I've been here eight years and just last year I noticed that the huge Victorian at the end of the street was a group home. I only noticed because the owner passed away so I ended up talking to someone who lived there. It's zoned to be a group home and it is catty-corner to an elementary school. So the county must not consider it an issue. I agree with you...I would have thought it would have been a problem. I have been proven wrong.

[Snedeker]

Thanks. I'm coming to the same conclusion.

[Korwinga]

I'm not sure why you automatically associate "group home" with criminals or illegal activity. A friend of mine has an autistic brother who lives in a group home. He can have awkward social interactions sometimes, but he's a good person. Another friend of mine works in a group home for the elderly. She takes care of the people who live there, driving them to their doctor's appointments or to the grocery store and things like that. [This](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_home) is the Wikipedia page for group home. All very innocuous things that you really shouldn't be worried about.

[Snedeker]

I really have no experience with group homes, so I was hoping that someone could change my mind about them.

[Pipstydoo]

Can I ask what state you live in?

[Snedeker]

Pennsylvania.

[Pipstydoo]

Which organization notified you about this group home?

[Snedeker]

I don't know, I just got a notice in my mailbox about a public meeting to discuss it. A representative from the company was there to answer questions.

[Pipstydoo]

Did this company organize the meeting or did your muni set it up?

[Snedeker]

Also, I'm wondering what your questions are leading to. Does it make a difference how I found out, or who organized the meeting?

[karnim]

Presumably with more information, /u/snedeker was planning on either researching the company or using prior knowledge to figure out what type of home it is, and help direct the conversation away from general group homes.

[nikon1123]

It would be information that could lead to research that could lead to answers.

[Pipstydoo]

It may, although there's a lot going on in your CMV. Let me lay out my train of thought. Some of it will tie into your views. I preface it with a disclaimer that I am not a lawyer and I am not offering legal advice. I merely spent some time on Google looking through federal and Pennsylvania laws on this issue. Neither you nor the entire neighborhood can stop this company from opening a group home in your area based on any of the views you've shared because your views are legally classified as discriminatory by federal law. The law is called [the Fair Housing Amendments Act](http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/hce/final8_1.php), and it protects group homes from just this sort of thinking. On the other hand, your fears about drug users and sex offenders is covered by the following: [STA-CITE]>The disability discrimination provisions of the Fair Housing Act do not extend to persons who claim to be disabled solely on the basis of having been adjudicated a juvenile delinquent, having a criminal record, or being a sex offender. Furthermore, the Fair Housing Act does not protect persons who currently use illegal drugs, persons who have been convicted of the manufacture or sale of illegal drugs, or persons with or without disabilities who present a direct threat to the persons or property of others. [END-CITE]On property values, [here](http://www.planningcommunications.com/gh/illinois_impact_on_surrounding_neighborhood.pdf), [here](http://www.gbchrb.org/grphomes.htm), [here](http://www.opkansas.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/impact-of-group-homes.pdf?&redir=1), [here](http://mn.gov/mnddc/parallels2/pdf/80s/85/85-EGH-CSR.pdf), and [here](http://www.state.nj.us/dcf/documents/behavioral/HelpfulInfo.pdf) are five examples of studies which found no conclusive causation between group homes and property value, and/or no adverse effect to property values. The general consensus is that group homes have little to no impact on property values in a given neighborhood. Sellers of houses near group homes are not legally required to disclose the presence of a group home. This may protect your property value in a direct way. That being said, if you are asked by the buyer, you may need to declare this in case of future litigation. This is something you would need to discuss with legal counsel. I could find no mention or reference to federal or PA state law which requires a municipality or company in PA to disclose the establishment of a group home other than as required in public records. Companies must [register and obtain licenses prior to setting up group homes](http://www.sba.gov/community/blogs/community-blogs/business-law-advisor/resources-starting-halfway-house-or-transitiona), and will typically file as non profit to receive private donations or government funding. You're worried about your tax dollars. This organization could just as easily be backed by a church, or some other independent group. They could be receiving grants from wealthy individuals or organizations. They might get federal grants or loans, in which case the amount of your dollars involved are either statistically irrelevant, or statistically irrelevant and paid back with interest. Sit down and Google "group homes in (your town)" and I bet you'll be amazed, especially because those neighborhoods aren't falling apart. The reason I asked those questions is because I wanted to get a feel for how much you've looked into the issue independently. My feeling is almost not at all, other than attending that meeting. The following are some state resources you can turn to if you have any further questions: [The Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission](http://www.phrc.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/phrc_home/18970) [The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity Contacts: Pennsylvania](http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/states/pennsylvania/working/fheo/fheostaff) [The Disability Rights Network of Pennsylvania](http://www.drnpa.org/)

[Snedeker]

That was an entirely amazing response. You are correct that I haven't looked into the issue at all as it was sprung on me yesterday. The research that you've done really helps, and I tremendously appreciate it. Thank you and please have a well earned ∆.

[Pipstydoo]

Thank you. :D

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[Snedeker]

That's something that I don't know. I'm assuming that the company set it up, but I have no idea.

[hacksoncode]

I live in a neighborhood with a bunch of different group homes in it, and while you have some good reason for concern, I barely ever notice. It doesn't seem to have impacted the values of any houses that aren't right next to the group homes. Indeed, housing prices in our neighborhood are increasing faster than most surrounding areas. It depends *a lot* on how far away from the group home you are. If you're right next door, you have good reason to be concerned, mostly because of simple things having to do with *any* house that has a lot of people in it (whether it's a frat or an apartment building or a group home, there will be traffic, and some small amount of noise that's more than a single family home). If you're several blocks away, the effect is going to be extremely minimal, if you can observe it at all.

[moonflower]

I think you really need to know what kind of people are going to be housed there before you can know whether to be concerned about any of those potential problems.

[Snedeker]

The company won't say anything about it. It's probably because they just don't know right now, but it still feels really creepy.

[Nikcara]

I used to work in a group home for teenage boys. They were all kids who had been removed from their families. Yes, some of them were jerks, but they were closely supervised. They rarely bothered the neighbors because they didn't care about the neighbors, though occasionally they were loud. I also used to work with adults with developmental disabilities, most of whom lived in group homes. They were harmless. Many of them also had a number of physical disabilities as well so they couldn't do things like commit burglaries if they wanted to. Sure they sometimes said or did weird stuff, but I never heard of them doing any property damage or hurting any of their neighbors or anything like that. In either of those cases law would have prevented the company from disclosing what type of group home was going in. The first would have been a violation of privacy, the second would have been a HIPPA violation. Because of the jobs I've had I've also known the location of several other group homes and battered women's shelters. They try very, very hard to blend in with the local community. Generally speaking, if you live in the immediate area you can figure it out if you're paying attention but otherwise you would have no idea. It's in their best interest to be discrete, *particularly* if you're talking about a battered women's shelter or group homes for kids. While I understand being uneasy about a halfway house for people coming out of jail they also have a huge incentive for not pestering the neighbors. If you're living in a halfway house chances are you're on parole, so if you don't want to go back to jail the last thing you want is to have neighbors complain about vandalism, things going missing, or fighting. Even if you somehow aren't on parole and live in a halfway house, guess who's going to be the first suspect if anything does go wrong?

[ADH-Kydex]

They might not legally be able to tell you anyways, HIPPA laws and whatnot. For what it's worth, I worked in a residential treatment facility (one step down from a psychiatric hospital) that was surrounded by houses and there is almost no impact on the surrounding community. It's not like a crack house or gang lair, just people improving their lives in a supervised setting. I would say your fears are pretty much unfounded.

[bramley]

[STA-CITE]> The business buying the house is a tax-free organization. I don't exactly know what that means, but I assume that they won't be paying property taxes. That means that they will be consuming resources but not paying for them, and my share of the community taxes will increase. [END-CITE]While this may be true, they're also ostensibly helping people return to society and therefore the economy. They should be a net-positive in the tax revenue they allow their inhabitants to generate after being released/paroled. [STA-CITE]> Even if this particular place only houses people who are complete angels, this will set a precedent and open up the neighborhood for other homes, and there is no guarantee that the other homes will be run as well. [END-CITE]Why does there need to be precedent? Clearly there doesn't, or this house wouldn't be coming in in the first place.

[Snedeker]

While it may be good for "society", my concern is that it will be bad for the people living directly around it. I'm really not looking for a debate on whether these kind of facilities are good or bad, I'm really more worried about the direct impact that it will have on my immediate neighborhood.

[bramley]

While I see what you're saying, I was just responding to the points you brought up in the OP. I think if you're going to bring up the question of this house using the resources that taxes are paid for, you should expect an answer, is all. Anyway, I don't *really* have an answer to 1 and 2. I don't rightly know if the house will incur trouble. You'd need to know more about who's living there. I assumed it was ex-prisoners, but that's more "halfway house" than "group home" isn't it? Perhaps a change in perspective? Think of them not like drug addicts, but people who are trying to really help themselves. If you were trying to get help, would you make a fuss? Would they put people likely to make a fuss into an otherwise quiet neighborhood? I'm inclined to believe it would be pretty ok without other information.

[Glory2Hypnotoad]

I've volunteered at group homes in the past. I've also worked in door to door sales so I know where the group homes are in my region. Most of the time, you'd have to knock on the door and talk to someone before you even knew it was a group home. I live across the street from one right now, and it's indistinguishable from any other house. Unless you go out of your way to point out you live next to a group home, there's a good chance a potential buyer would never even notice.

[Snedeker]

That would be fantastic if that was the case.

[PrinceHarming]

I'm your guy for this one. I worked at a group home for 14 years and now work in real estate. Odds are the group home is for adults with special needs and developmental disabilities. That's the majority of group home residents. Assuming most group homes are like the one I worked at these won't be violent (at least not chronically) people. If they are they'd be placed in a mental health facility. There is the possibility some may be sex offenders. Because of the huge liability my state paid for a one-to-one staff for residents with a history of that. In other words we had full time (24/7) staff whose sole job was to monitor these people. Even then they were not often allowed in the community. For property value concerns, I don't think it would effect you much. Buyers are not allowed to ask about the specific kind of people who make up a neighborhood and agents can't answer those questions. People with mental disorders are a protected class and we can't steer people toward or away from a neighborhood for that reason. On top of that agents don't have information concerning these homes, just as your information is limited. It's a Right to Privacy issue. Right now I think you don't have anything to worry about. Once they move in I'm betting you won't notice a thing has changed in your neighborhood.

[kimburgly]

Thank you from a fellow group home staff member. The home I run is beautiful, the men I support are amazing humans that contribute so much to their community. It's heartbreaking when they are prejudged.

[Snedeker]

This is pretty much exactly what I was hoping to hear. I'm not heartless, I'm just worried, and you put my mind at ease. Have a ∆ with my thanks.

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[NaturalSelectorX]

[STA-CITE]> The company may potentially be moving "dangerous" people into the house. I live in a very quite residential neighborhood, and the thought of drug addicts being housed near me is disturbing. Even if the residents are well behaved, there is going to be traffic of their "friends" who I'm assuming will be similar in nature. The company won't say who may be living there. It could be just infirm elderly people, but it could also be "sexual predators" for all I know. [END-CITE]If the group home is for recovering addicts, you can assume some sort of supervision. What do you fear from an addict under supervision? These aren't dealers or drug lords. I'm not quite sure the "friends" would hang around the neighborhood and cause trouble Secondly, I've never heard of a group home for sexual predators. You are making things up now. [STA-CITE]> My house will lose value when people find out that it is near a group home. Even if it isn't logical, I'm assuming that when someone is looking to buy my house they will be put off by the presence of group home nearby. [END-CITE]Are you required to disclose the presence of the group home? There is no reason they need to know. [STA-CITE]> The business buying the house is a tax-free organization. I don't exactly know what that means, but I assume that they won't be paying property taxes. That means that they will be consuming resources but not paying for them, and my share of the community taxes will increase. [END-CITE]What type of unpaid resources will they be consuming? Property taxes pay for things like schools and libraries. This group home is providing a public service and helping to reduce crime and drug usage. [STA-CITE]> Even if this particular place only houses people who are complete angels, this will set a precedent and open up the neighborhood for other homes, and there is no guarantee that the other homes will be run as well. [END-CITE]Why are you worried about precedent? Your neighborhood is already allowing these types of home so no precedent is necessary. Group homes don't need to compete like stores or restaurants.

[schwitz]

Theres a group home for battered women to get away from their abusive situations near my neighbourhood. There have been multiple instances of men tracking the women down and trying to set the place on fire or break in to get yhe women. But in all honesty most people in these places are trying to get their lives back on track so thrir motivated in a very positive productive manner. So the small chance that something dangerous happening is greatly outweighed by having people trying to be good citizens and people in general.

[Nixon_Cranium]

[STA-CITE]>sex offender group homes [END-CITE][Here is a restriction on it(PDF warning](http://ssl.csg.org/dockets/2010cycle/complete2010volume/adultcriminalgroupssl2010ssl.) [An incident in New York] (http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4246366)

[TehRedBaron]

[STA-CITE]> Secondly, I've never heard of a group home for sexual predators. You are making things up now. [END-CITE]No, they are very much a thing.

[Snedeker]

[STA-CITE]>What do you fear from an addict under supervision? [END-CITE]They may be under supervision, but they're not being confined. I'm concerned that people with a criminal past will continue to be criminals. I don't think that it's unreasonable to assume that "recovering" addicts might still pose a threat to break into my house and rob me. [STA-CITE]>Secondly, I've never heard of a group home for sexual predators. You are making things up now [END-CITE]I'm not making anything up, I just don't know. The company won't tell us so I don't know *who* will be put in there. What difference is it to the company who gets placed there? [STA-CITE]> Are you required to disclose the presence of the group home? There is no reason they need to know. [END-CITE]I suppose that's the best-case scenario. [STA-CITE]>What type of unpaid resources will they be consuming? [END-CITE]Every other family pays taxes that fund the schools, and the maintenance of the roads, and every other service that the local government supplies. Even if they don't use the resource, they are taking one house off of the tax roles and increasing the burden for everyone else. [STA-CITE]>This group home is providing a public service and helping to reduce crime and drug usage. [END-CITE]It won't be a home for people from my community, it will be placing people here from other areas. Our community will be paying for the "public service" for other communities. It is (potentially) taking criminals and drug addicts and just relocating them to my community. [STA-CITE]>Why are you worried about precedent? [END-CITE]I'm worried because this is the first one. It seems like this one was only issued a permit due to the fact that our local commissioners are borderline incompetent and did not question why a corporation was buying a residential house. If they had, the issue might never have gone this far. Once it's in place, there will be nothing at all to prevent others.

[NaturalSelectorX]

[STA-CITE]> I don't think that it's unreasonable to assume that "recovering" addicts might still pose a threat to break into my house and rob me. [END-CITE]How do you make the jump from recovering addict to burglary? Usually the addicts in group homes are required to have jobs, so they won't be robbing you for money. [STA-CITE]> The company won't tell us so I don't know who will be put in there. What difference is it to the company who gets placed there? [END-CITE]Group homes have to be effective. Putting pedophiles in a group home serves no purpose, but if you are disabled or an addict it lowers your living costs and provides a support system. Group homes aren't intended for every type of criminal. [STA-CITE]> It is (potentially) taking criminals and drug addicts and just relocating them to my community. [END-CITE]What do you think happens to the drug addicts from your community? Either your community benefits from that group home or a group home in another community. Either way, these group homes provide a benefit that outweigh any loss of tax revenue. [STA-CITE]> Once it's in place, there will be nothing at all to prevent others. [END-CITE]They can always change the rules and grandfather the existing home in. There is also nothing stopping your local government from kicking out the group home (if they could prevent it in the first place).

[Snedeker]

Here is my concern. Having this facility in my neighborhood can either be a positive, a negative, or neutral. I don't see how it can be a positive. The best case is that it is neutral, and I'm worried that it will be a negative. I don't know what the actual impact of having a house full of (recovering) drug addicts in my neighborhood will be. Can you make an argument that it would be something positive? And not just something positive to "society", but something positive for the people living directly around it.

[mrmcbastard]

[STA-CITE]> I don't see how it can be a positive. The best case is that it is neutral, and I'm worried that it will be a negative. [END-CITE]So, you admit that your view can't be changed. Then what's the point if this post?

[Snedeker]

This is an exceedingly poor response. For an example of an excellent response, please [see here.](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/2b1rwv/cmv_a_group_home_may_be_opening_near_me_and_im/cj176ij)