WMN: t3_2k4hym_t1_clhxifd--TIO2

[TITLE]

CMV: Golf, Darts, Snooker and Chess should not be classed as sports by any definition.

[KruxOfficial]

The way I see it, in the English language we have a few words for things that are played competitively. The word "sport" should be reserved for activities that are physically demanding. Darts, Snooker, and Chess (perhaps a few others) should be classed as "games", as while they require skill and/or intelligence, they do not have the physical aspect that almost every other sport does. I rarely see fat professional tennis players, but I *have* seen a few somewhat overweight snooker and darts players. I think a lot of the oncoming debate will be about whose definition of 'sport' we go by. Perhaps my approach of defining 'sport' as something physically active is a tad... out there... but I don't see why it shouldn't be the case. EDIT: Thanks /u/eriophora for explaining why golf should be classed as a sport. I will subtract that from my argument where I can. However I still think that my opinion on the others is still justified. _____ > *Hello, users of CMV! This is a footnote from your moderators. We'd just like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please remember to* ***[read through our rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules)***. *If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which,* ***[downvotes don't change views](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/guidelines#wiki_upvoting.2Fdownvoting)****! If you are thinking about submitting a CMV yourself, please have a look through our* ***[popular topics wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/populartopics)*** *first. Any questions or concerns? Feel free to* ***[message us](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/changemyview)***. *Happy CMVing!*

[Pipstydoo]

Have you ever played golf?

[Noob616]

One of these is not like the other. Chess is the one that doesn't fit. Chess is a game, while with darts and snooker it's not the same thing although it does still feel weird to call it a sport. The problem is drawing a line where there is or isn't enough physical exertion, as mentioned, shooting and archery are olympic sports. I have a hard time believing olympic air rifle shooting is any more demanding than darts. I don't really know about the overweight thing either, it's only in recent years that athletes all train year round and are in such fantastic shape, even then you have athletes in undisputably "real" sports like baseball, American football, and hockey who play in top pro leagues and are overweight. Chess is the only one 100% clearly not a sport because playing chess is in no way related to your physical skill or dexterity, and it's entirely related to your strategic/mental game. With darts and snooker, to play at a top level you need to be both smart strategically, and have good physical skill/dexterity.

[AJ1Z3]

I can concede darts, chess etc. but you're nuts if you think golf isn’t a sport. Go play 36 holes while walking the course and carrying your bag. See how that argument stands up.

[NuclearStudent]

Darts does require some physical strength. You need to train your hands to be able to throw hard enough and straight enough.

[sonofaresiii]

There are fat baseball players. Famous ones even. Baseball is definitely a sport, yeah?

[dgillz]

Sports != Athletics. There is definitely a large overlap between the two, as most of what people mean by sports is indeed athletics. However words mean things. One of the definitions of sports per Merriam Webster: [STA-CITE]>A source of diversion; recreation [END-CITE]This being the case all of things you mentioned are sports. The fact that they are not athletic in nature is what you mean, I believe, but as I said, words mean things, and the definition of sport goes beyond athletics.

[half-emptyknowledge]

There was a similar thread about racecar drivers not being atheletes a couple days ago. Someone had a great question that classifies sports well. For games, if the best person in the world could whisper in your ear, telling you what to do, then that would make you the best person in the world. If you still aren't be the best, then some physical skill is required, and you're playing a sport.

[Blindocide]

"there are only two sports, running and fighting, anything else is a game" not sure if you really want to go down this rabbit hole.

[BigcountryRon]

For me a sport is any competition that one can win by their own merit without a judge. [STA-CITE]>Darts, Snooker, and Chess (perhaps a few others) should be classed as "games", as while they require skill and/or intelligence, they do not have the physical aspect that almost every other sport does. [END-CITE]Darts requires hand eye coordination. CHESS: The Brain is a physical organ, using the brain is a physical activity. To say using the brain to run is a sport but using the brain to think is not, is simply disingenuous as to how the brain functions and is used. [STA-CITE]>I rarely see fat professional tennis players, but I have seen a few somewhat overweight snooker and darts players. [END-CITE]So what? Are these two [fat guys](http://www.japan-guide.com/g8/2080_05.jpg), not competing in a sport? What about these [fat guys](http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/565/311/PJ-BK010_FATJER_G_20121003001607_original.jpg?1349285384)? This [overweight guy](http://www.seahawks.com/assets/images/imported/SEA/articleImages/players/historical/kennedy-cortez/120718-moyercortez-600.jpg), is in the hall of fame, he is one of the best defensive tackles ever! I would bet his size and weight have no bearing on his ability, and he could probably beat me and you put together. [STA-CITE]>Perhaps my approach of defining 'sport' as something physically active is a tad... out there... but I don't see why it shouldn't be the case. [END-CITE]Because it ignores many things, and it doesn't stack up to critique.

[KruxOfficial]

So scrabble and poker *are* sports? And hand eye co-ordination isn't enough I don't think. There are a number of other things that aren't sports that still require hand eye co-ordination, such as DIY. I think that classing the brain as an organ, and therefore anything involving it must be a sport is a bit ridiculous. And how is the brain a 'physical' organ? And the fat thing was more of a guideline, and there is no reason why someone with intense strength could compete highly even though they have limited fitness. In momentum based sports, being heavy is somewhat necessary. I just don't think that being both unfit, and weak, and merely having skill and co-ordination is enough to make it a sport.

[BigcountryRon]

[STA-CITE]>So scrabble and poker are sports? [END-CITE]They can be, yes. [STA-CITE]>And hand eye co-ordination isn't enough I don't think. There are a number of other things that aren't sports that still require hand eye co-ordination, such as DIY. [END-CITE]What is DIY? [STA-CITE]>I think that classing the brain as an organ, and therefore anything involving it must be a sport is a bit ridiculous. And how is the brain a 'physical' organ? [END-CITE]It is impossible to participate in any sport without a brain. All the skills, training, agility, coordination all of it, starts in the brain. [STA-CITE]>In momentum based sports [END-CITE]I think you just made that up. What do you mean by this? [STA-CITE]>I just don't think that being both unfit, and weak, and merely having skill and co-ordination is enough to make it a sport. [END-CITE]So you don't think shooting sports, are actually sports then?

[KruxOfficial]

I don't see how needing to have a brain to compete in sports means that anything that uses the brain must be a sport. It may facilitate the use of other body parts, but it is not itself a physical part of sport. "Momentum based sports" is what I say to refer to things like rugby, american football, wrestling and stuff, where having a bit of weight behind you is necessary to do well. And I don't think rifle shooting is really much of a sport (archery yes). I think lifting heavy objects is, but merely extending it to a heavy object that goes bang isn't enough.

[BigcountryRon]

[STA-CITE]>I don't see how needing to have a brain to compete in sports means that anything that uses the brain must be a sport. [END-CITE]I never stated that. [STA-CITE]>It may facilitate the use of other body parts, but it is not itself a physical part of sport. [END-CITE]Of course it is. [STA-CITE]>"Momentum based sports" is what I say to refer to things like rugby, american football, wrestling and stuff, where having a bit of weight behind you is necessary to do well. [END-CITE]Why is darts and snooker not on that list? Is Basketball, Baseball on that list? What about golf? [STA-CITE]>And I don't think rifle shooting is really much of a sport (archery yes). I think lifting heavy objects is, but merely extending it to a heavy object that goes bang isn't enough. [END-CITE]So you are admitting that this is purely subjective reasoning, with no real basis on fact or reality? Not any definition per the OP title, just per your definition.

[lesalekirisame]

Wait if golf is in why not darts? You also need accuracy.

[KruxOfficial]

I changed my mind on golf because it *does* actually take physical strength to hit something a long way. Darts is a matter of throwing something, but the skill factor alone is not enough to make it a sport, since a plethora of accepted non-sports take skill as well.

[Mavericgamer]

How many non-sports that take skill are also competitive? And of those, how many of them become sports when you do make them competitive?

[ohaiihavecats]

I certainly won't argue for chess being a sport, and golf has already been covered. Darts and pool/snooker (depending on which side of the Atlantic you're on) on a competitive level, however, require immensely precise fine motor control and hand-eye coordination--purely physical qualities. While they lack the element of strength and conditioning present in other sports, I think that still puts them squarely in the same category, along with archery and shooting sports.

[KruxOfficial]

I would say that accuracy and timing aren't enough to changed their category, since playing a musical instrument requires the same skill set.

[R99]

You have to be really flexible and have a very strong core in order to play golf professionally.

[ADogWithThumbs]

The separation of the two, games and sports, are about the effect of that activity on your fitness level. I think golf is a sport, while darts, pool, chess, and poker are games. A sport should include some element of physical fitness. Meaning that you get fit by doing that activity or playing that game. You may suck at basketball, but playing hours on end will improve your cardiovascular fitness, i.e. basketball is a sport. Carrying a golf bag and walking 18 holes WILL make you physically fit. Therefore, golf is a sport. Playing an afternoon of chess or poker will not improve your fitness level. Therefore, poker and chess are games.

[fanningmace]

Golf is physically active (more so than baseball or being a goalie in most sports.) Augusta National is over 4 miles long. Sure, it may be walking and not running, but that's still being physically active (especially when taking into account swinging is a relatively violent motion that occurs roughly ~70 times.)

[stevegcook]

[STA-CITE]>Golf is physically active (more so than... being a goalie in most sports.) [END-CITE]http://www.ntd.tv/en/news/sports/20140916/218919-caps-goalies-stop-pucks-without-hands.html https://youtube.com/watch?v=kvFD3U_K5E8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3DeSaEiT0gM

[RidleyScotch]

Golf, Darts, Snooker and Chess are all physical activities. One a scale of activity there aren't in the same echelon as football or soccer but they all involve some level of physical activity and progress to play on an professional level

[mrmanuke]

Check out [this post](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/2ju8d3/cmv_race_car_drivers_are_not_athletes/clf89c7) by /u/EvilNalu, which explains a very convenient test you can use to draw the line between what is a physical sport and what is not.

[BobHogan]

Why does a sport have to be physical? One could argue that it takes just as much practice to be good at chess as it does to be good at football. And the mental effort is much greater in chess, one could even argue that it is more challenging than football because of the time limit. In professional chess tournaments, if you f*** up you have less than 5 minutes to correct it before the game is over. In football, or most other sports for that matter, you have a longass time to fix any mistakes you might have made early on.

[KruxOfficial]

But I don't think that just because something involves skill or intelligence that makes it a sport. By your definition, playing a musical instrument is a sport just because it takes practice. That is clearly not the case, so we should not allow things to be called sports just because of the skill factor.

[BobHogan]

eye_patch brought up a good point. Sports have winners and losers. Music generally does not have winners and losers, it has no competition. Yet when it does (marching band anyone) no one tries to say it isn't a sport after seeing the dedication and amount of time these people put into it. Marching band is a sport, but simply playing a guitar is not, the difference is that one has competition. Similarly, chess and darts have competition in them, there is clearly a winner and loser in every game. Therefor they should be considered sports

[eye_patch_willy]

If there are such things as competitive instrument playing then yes, I would consider it a sport. Maybe there are. But generally music is simply entertainment and nobody wins or loses based on their ability to play the guitar.

[PM_Urquhart]

Game means an activity in which we place barriers and obstacles before ourselves in order to overcome them. For fun. Sports are when we play games competitively. Physical sports, traditional sports are words 'reserved for activities that are physically demanding'. eSports, mind sports include other stuff. 'Sport' encompasses all.

[KruxOfficial]

Is scrabble a sport then?! And plenty of areas in atheletics involve overcoming obstacles, yet it is still a sport. The definition of sport that I have grown up with isn't just the competitive aspect, but the physical aspect too. eSports, and bar games, should still be refered to as games, or competitive games. I don't think that the fact that they are played competitively is enough to give them a new definition, in the same way that rock paper scissors isn't a sport!

[dgillz]

Yes, scrabble is a sport. One of the definitions of sports per Merriam Webster: [STA-CITE]>A source of diversion; recreation [END-CITE]That covers scrabble, and a whole let more. Just because an activity isn't physical in nature doesn't mean it isn't a sport.

[eriophora]

How do you feel about archery? Golf and archery are quite similar, in that they're primarily sports where making perfect, accurate movements with high levels of coordination are most important. Golf drive distance, which can make a pretty huge difference, is also highly influenced by your core strength, height, and general physique. Golf and archery are characterized by the fact that in between shots/strokes, you're generally either sitting or walking, however, this does not change the amount of physical ability and acuity you need when you ARE shooting or taking a swing. As a small 5'1" female, I can usually expect a drive distance of around 100ish yards. Professional golfers who are taller (thus having a stronger drive due to the length of their clubs) with stronger, more athletic bodies than mine can usually drive their ball around 300 yards, a considerable difference that cannot be chalked up solely to skill. A huge part of that is based entirely on physical prowess.

[KruxOfficial]

∆ Ok, accept a delta. An edit will be added to subtract golf from my list of 'unphysical sports'. I had previously played golf and since I was very bad I guess I put most of the fact that I suck at it down to skill rather than strength and exercising certain muscles. But my view still remains unchanged on 'games' like chess, darts, and snooker, where it is perfectly feasibly to be both overweight and successful. They rely on skill and brains alone, without any element of strength or fitness which I think should be necessary.

[DeltaBot]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/eriophora. ^[[History](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/eriophora)] ^[[Wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltabot)][[Code](https://github.com/alexames/DeltaBot)][[Subreddit](http://www.reddit.com/r/DeltaBot/)]

[rediring]

[STA-CITE]>> But my view still remains unchanged on 'games' like chess, darts, and snooker, where it is perfectly feasibly to be both overweight and successful. [END-CITE]What is your opinion on Sumo Wrestling as a sport?

[KruxOfficial]

Hahaha, that's an interesting question. I think using "can fat people play it?" as a definition for sport is a flawed viewpoint. As a variant on ordinary wrestling I think it is a sport, it's just a that it is a variant where being... um... *large* is somewhat crucial.

[Hq3473]

Golf is physically active.

[KruxOfficial]

More so than Chess maybe, but a lot less than Football (soccer) or Tennis... I still don't think that taking a swing is 'physical' enough to warrant being called physical if you know what I mean.

[Hq3473]

No, I don't know what you mean. At what point is there "enough" physical activity? Pistol shoting -[STA-CITE]> Archery -> Gof -> Curling -> Equestrian -> Fencing -> softball [END-CITE]At which point EXACTLY is there "enough" activity? Is not that an inconsistent standard for qualifying activities?

[KruxOfficial]

I think the fact that the line is difficult to draw does not mean that we should just draw the line right at the minimum and go with it. My dictionary says: [STA-CITE]> an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment. [END-CITE]So somewhere that line needs to be draw. In my opinion, on your diagram, the line should be in between 'pistol shooting' and 'archery', since everything right of that requires at least some strength (i revised my opinion on golf), which the exception of curling. I think curling can be seen as a bit of an exception since unlike darts, chess and snooker, you cannot just go down to the local pub and play it with some friends, unless you live in a highly specific area.

[Mavericgamer]

Pistol shooting requires forearm strength and precise breathing to be good; forearm strength helps recover from muzzle climb/prevent muzzle climb, and perfecting breathing during shooting is important to get an accurate sight picture. I can understand why you might draw the line there, and even why this might not change your mind, but I don't think that you can say that pistol shooting (at a competitive level) doesn't require strength.

[Amablue]

Why not? You've got to have quite a bit of strength and control to be able to hit the balls the way they do.

[BobHogan]

Shooting/archery are even less physically intense than golf, yet you still classify them as sports. Why? What sets Golf apart other than you might not enjoy watching it as much? It still takes years of training to be good enough to have a shot at the PGA, just like it takes years of training in football to be good enough to have a shot at the NFL.

[KruxOfficial]

"I revised my opinions on golf" ... thanks to /u/eriophora. Golf takes strength, as does archery, which I neglected to think about, even if for a minimal period of time.