WMN: t3_37jfl3_t1_crn6u7t

[TITLE]

CMV: in the world there's only "the good" and "the bad".

[PrincessMarian]

I'm not a native english speaker so excuse me. Alright, it seems like in this world there are only the good things and the bad things, the black and white, and though I believe the world is not black and white and there is a grey area in between, what is that grey area? I haven't been able to figure it out like, for example: a man steals food from a shop because he doesn't have enough money and he needs to feed his kids, then he gets caught and taken to prison. Though he did something "bad" (stealing) for a "good" cause (feed his children), he still did something bad therefore he gets a punishment. Where's the grey in that? I don't know. That's one of my confusions, the grey between the black and white. To be clear, I'm not bigoted or religious and I understand there are diferent types of good and different types of bad depending on your context, where you live. The other thing I'm confused about and that is fairly linked to the first one is if there's something besides "the good" and "the bad". I personaly live by trying to do the good but I also think that the bad is necesary until a certain degree. CMV! _____ > *Hello, users of CMV! This is a footnote from your moderators. We'd just like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please remember to* ***[read through our rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules)***. *If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which,* ***[downvotes don't change views](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/guidelines#wiki_upvoting.2Fdownvoting)****! If you are thinking about submitting a CMV yourself, please have a look through our* ***[popular topics wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/populartopics)*** *first. Any questions or concerns? Feel free to* ***[message us](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/changemyview)***. *Happy CMVing!*

[OccasionallyWitty]

"A trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop it by putting something very heavy in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you – your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. Should you proceed?"

[PrincessMarian]

No, only if the fat guy wants to IMO.

[all2humanuk]

Does he have diabetes?

[RustyRook]

Some situations are grey when there really is no objective right or wrong, when two different people can come to completely different conclusions about the "rightness" or "wrongness" of a situation. Something that is often grey is giving to charity. Perhaps you're aware that giving to charity is thought to be kind and generous by one group, and indulgent and wasteful by another. Say you've managed to save some money in the past few months to buy a really nice pair of sunglasses for the summer. It's your money, you're free to do with it as you want. But that money could literally help save lives of children in other parts of the world. So what do you do? If you decide to go ahead and buy that really nice pair of sunglasses I don't think it would be wrong, and if you decide to donate that money that wouldn't be wrong either. Or what if you buy a decent pair of sunglasses instead of the really good ones, and donate the saved money? That would be a compromise b/w two "good" things. It's often a matter of how much information you have regarding any issue that makes something grey. I don't doubt that there are some things that are definitely "good" of "bad" according to my own perception of morals. The more I know about an issue, the more arguments from two sides, they more grey something becomes.

[PrincessMarian]

∆ -didn't know I could give more than 1 delta and my view has been changed for good :)

[RustyRook]

Sweet. Thanks. I did think of another way to explain the whole matter, maybe you'd find it useful. Keep in mind that people's perception of what is "moral" changes. For example, [more people in the US say that homosexuality is morally acceptable today than just 15 years ago](http://www.gallup.com/poll/183413/americans-continue-shift-left-key-moral-issues.aspx). So think of the field of morality as being completely grey, with two goalposts that we've labelled as "acceptable" and "unacceptable." These are to guide us, and we shift those goalposts from time to time.

[PrincessMarian]

I'm actually glad it is this way, because it gives us the oportunity to choose as a society so yeah, thanks!

[DeltaBot]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/RustyRook. [^RustyRook's ^delta ^history](/r/ChangeMyView/wiki/user/rustyrook) ^| [^delta ^system ^explained](/r/ChangeMyView/wiki/DeltaBot)

[shukufuku]

Grey is the simultaneous coexistence of things deemed good and bad. From a consequentialist perspective grey will occur when multiple values are affected by an action. Let's say that happiness and truth for humans are both intrinsically good. Smiling to make someone happy is always good as long as it's always as long as it doesn't take away from other things of value. When you have to deny one value to create another, things become grey. Telling someone a painful truth promotes human truth but decreases human happiness. We sometimes call these "moral dilemmas" when the magnitude of the values are similar or "necessary evils"/" lesser of two evils " when the magnitudes are obviously different. Considered in isolation actions can be see clearly as good or bad for each value, but in real moral systems there can be dozens of values competing. We value things like happiness, truth, liberty, piety, life, and duty, each in multiple nuanced ways. When you try to apply them all to your life, everything will start to look grey.

[PrincessMarian]

∆ I didn't know I could give more than one delta. -It's more clear now, thank you.

[DeltaBot]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/shukufuku. [^shukufuku's ^delta ^history](/r/ChangeMyView/wiki/user/shukufuku) ^| [^delta ^system ^explained](/r/ChangeMyView/wiki/DeltaBot)

[JPelter]

There's been a lot of debate about it in recent times but I firmly believed the issue was resolved in 1967 by the work of Professor Eastwood. His logical and philosophical considerations have left no doubt that in addition to the "good" and the "bad" there is also the "ugly".

[all2humanuk]

I'm going to disagree with you on two points, one Eli Wallach was the Ugly and surely it was Sergio Leone's work anyway.

[sloggz]

The Universe can't be divided into good and bad because 'good' and 'bad' are just descriptions of how parts of that universe, interact with humans on a subjective level. By that I mean that 'bad' means about the same thing as 'soft', or 'warm to the touch'. Warmth and the softness of something is really just a description of the subjective feeling that object has in its interaction with humans. We can express this interaction in more complex ways, and we can measure and relate this feeling to other, less subjective criteria, like:temperature for warmth and coefficient of friction/ and description of material surface and its interaction with other materials. But in the end, we're just relating two physical properties of bits of the Universe, with the subjective feeling that we experience, as a physical organism. Now the above examples are much more wishy-washy, because of the fact that something like warmth *is* able to be objectively measures by an accurate outside source, like temperature. Good and bad are just the two general categories of 'responses' that we lump things in. Getting stung by a bee feels bad, and causes pain, swelling and a sometimes dangerous interaction with an outside chemical that you're body has a conditioned, negative-reinforcing experience to. Most people would be comfortable in firmly putting 'being stung by a bee' under the 'bad' response category. But what about something more complex, and subtle? Like a tickle? The exact same sensation could be pleasurable, infuriating, hilarious, sexual, annoying and downright maddening, all based on the (very,very,very) complex interactions happening in your brain, which we call consciousness. Is tickling bad, or good? Well answering which category to put that in could be either an easy choice, or a very difficult one, depending on any brains subjective and unique experience of it. From these examples we can see how the idea that there is no middle ground between good and bad, is comparable (and in some ways I'd say, much *more* incorrect) than saying something like "There is no middle ground between cold and hot". Of course there are things so hot you'd physically be unable to experience them without instantly rendering your mushy and organic sense organs useless and dead, and of course there are things so cold that it would instantly begin killing and freezing any sensing cells it came into contact with. But isn't it also obvious that, due to the fact that the transition between warmth and cold is a continuous scale, and the criteria is inherently subjective (Note: I'm talking about warmth, as in the sensation, which while highly correlated to temperature, is not the same thing), than the same must be true for good and bad, and thus there exists a very large grey area while attempting to jam everything into those two categories.

[swearrengen]

Really, to say "there is only black and white" is just as wrong as saying "there is no black and white - only grey". Because if black and white exist - grey must also. And if grey exists, so must black and white! You can't have grey without it's mix of black and white. What a person sees - whether black/white/grey (or roygbiv!) is a function of their knowledge and understanding. They might claim there is no black and white for a number of reasons. If what is right or wrong to them seems morally confusing, they might say black and white don't exist - because that's what life feels like to them. Or if a person believes he is not the cause of his actions he might say black/white don't exist, believing that life is a series of predetermined or random events we have no control over. Or a person might believe philosophically that right and wrong are all a matter of subjective or cultural perspective. There *are* plenty of difficult choices with moral implications to make in life that you will not immediately know what the right thing to do is. E.g. should you live with your father or mother if they split up and you believe you love them equally? What's the right thing to do? For the moment of uncertainty, you may acknowledge the existence of grey. Now to your example: if you have exhausted all other options and your baby is dying, should you steal to save it's life? You said that stealing was bad/black, and saving your baby was good/white. Are you sure? You can't morally evaluate a particular choice *in isolation* of the context, the reasons, cause and effect, means and ends. In a certain context like in this example, stealing *is* the absolute, objectively right *moral* choice. Stealing is *right*! (Others may call it grey - you may call it black. But I believe it's 100% objectively white). In an emergency context, what is right and wrong must be re-arranged as a temporary measure so that the good survives. Of course, after the baby is saved, the father is still morally obliged to pay back what he has stolen.

[PrincessMarian]

∆ -didn't know I could give more than 1 delta and you're right, we can't evaluate a choice in isolation of the context, reasons, cause and effect, etc.

[DeltaBot]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/swearrengen. [^swearrengen's ^delta ^history](/r/ChangeMyView/wiki/user/swearrengen) ^| [^delta ^system ^explained](/r/ChangeMyView/wiki/DeltaBot)

[ThePantsParty]

Are you limiting this to only legal sanctions, or to ethical considerations in general? Because legally of course you're either found guilty or not guilty, but even there, there's gray in the sense that things like motivation is taken into account. For example, look at the varying degrees of murder, as well as manslaughter, all based on what was motivating the person. So that would seem to be an example of shades of gray as to how bad something is.

[PrincessMarian]

sorry I wasn't very clear. Yes, I meant ethical considerations in general.

[Rubin0]

Can you define what good, bad, and grey are? This seems to be a linguistics issue instead of philosophical.

[PrincessMarian]

Well good has different meanings but what I refer to is from a ethical and moraly point of view (my example above wasn't that great), so "good" can be defined as an action or thought that benefits the person/people recieving that action, yourself included (helping, donating, resting, etc), and that at the end it has a positive impact. "bad" is all the contrary, an action or thought that doesn't benefit the person/people reciving that action, including yourself and that at the end it has a negative impact on something or someone. and I don't know what the grey could be

[Arch-duke]

In the example you cited, the 'grey' is in the man's noble intentions (contrast it with stealing bread only to throw it away, just to make the shopkeeper suffer). The idea of 'grey' is that nothing is totally evil, or totally good. Hitler built a kickass highway system, and was mostly motivated by a love for Germany, but was also personally responsible for genocide. Gandhi was a bad father and a pedophile, but also freed India from colonialism, and inspired millions. Hitler has a mostly bad reputation, whereas Gandhi has a thoroughly positive reputation. Is Hitler 'bad' and Gandhi 'good'? Or, are they both complicated individuals responsible for complicated actions, all with good and bad elements to varying degrees?

[pocketknifeMT]

[STA-CITE]> Gandhi was a bad father and a pedophile, but also freed India from colonialism, and inspired millions. [END-CITE]He also advocated for anti-industrial policies that had India trailing most Asian countries for decades. India could have been like Japan otherwise. That's probably his legacy that had the most practical effect on the country...and not for the better. Lots of killer one-liners though. Man could orate and make a stand.

[PrincessMarian]

Thank you for answering. So we can say that black and white doesn't exist, only the grey, because we don't know the person's intentions and nothing could be totally of something? I don't really like imagining hypothetical situations because they haven't really happened but if we use the one you mentioned, stealing a bread and throw it to the floor just to make the shopkeeper suffer, it still wouldn't be black and white because we don't know the reasons the theif wants to make him suffer, am I right?

[WildTurkey81]

The beauty is that the black and white are the duality of grey. Grey is the unity of the duality. So all three exist, it's just that grey is a different thing to black and white. Temperature is the grey to the black and white of hot and cold. Without a distinction between black and white, there wouldn't be a grey.

[PrincessMarian]

Hmm okay it makes more sense now. ∆ -didn't know I could give more than 1 delta.

[DeltaBot]

This delta is currently disallowed as your comment contains either no or little text ([comment rule 4](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_4)). Please include an explanation for how /u/WildTurkey81 changed your view. If you edit this in, replying to my comment will make me rescan yours. ^[[Wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltabot)][[Code](https://github.com/alexames/DeltaBot)][/r/DeltaBot]

[PrincessMarian]

this was a month ago! Now is when I get the notification? whut

[Arch-duke]

If we wanted, we could define the reason: the thief stole the bread just to make the shopkeeper suffer because he hates the shopkeeper's ethnicity. Then again, maybe he only hates the shopkeeper's race because of some injustice inflicted upon him long ago, making him a victim himself in a way. Then again, maybe the thief is just a sociopath, and enjoys inflicting suffering for it's own sake. Then again, maybe sociopathy could be considered an illness, and thus not really 'evil'. The idea of there being no pure black and white is a possibility. Whether you believe in purely good, or purely evil actions, your acceptance of the existence of moral 'grey' zones satisfies the CMV.

[PrincessMarian]

∆ the black, the white, and the grey is something that can't be universally defined. The grey is the meaning, the reason behind the actions *and* the way people take the reason behind the actions. There is also a posibility that the black and white doesn't exist, and it's just grey. It depend's on the personal beliefs and the culture. But the grey definitely* exists.

[DeltaBot]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Arch-duke. [^Arch-duke's ^delta ^history](/r/ChangeMyView/wiki/user/arch-duke) ^| [^delta ^system ^explained](/r/ChangeMyView/wiki/DeltaBot)