WMN: t3_3d0d6p_t1_ct0tpsa--TIO2

[TITLE]

CMV: I think a 'twist' in a movie, however well done, is a cheap (but nevertheless amusing) way to appear 'smart' (SPOILERS)

[1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k]

A multitude of films have twists in the plot, for example Gone Girl, Memento, a lot of films of M. Night Shyamalan, the Usual Suspects, Shutter Island, Fight club, well I can go on and on. [Here is a list of 100 twists](http://www.imdb.com/list/ls070836741/). It usually consists of a plot that advances, but with hidden information not completely revealed yet. When the information is revealed, it will heighten the liking of the plot. It feels 'Mind blowing', the movie instantly goes deeper, it is suddenly a more complex movie, and twists are ideal for deep analysis and allegories. Adding a twist to a plot can make it everyone say 'Wow' and that one guy say: 'I knew it all along'. I think an analogy of showing why people like this so much, because it is abit like being in the plato's cave and then suddenly showing the light and deeper meaning. However, and this is my point, it is a simple and cheap way to make the movie much smarter than it initially was. I think there is also a high amount of plot twist movies in the IMDB top 250 (By no means a standard, but a good representative what is liked by movie-goers). Adding a well written plot twist makes a movie ripe for people to laud it, even though it is done to dead. Basically my point is that it is a too simple way to make a movie 'smarter' and an overdone method of 'blowing peoples minds'. It instantly adds points for movie-goers. As I said in the title, my point is not that is a non-amusing 'plot device'. But it is a simple way to add layers in a movie. While watching a movie myself I always seem to like a twist (I thought Gone Girl did this very well and it sincerely surprised me) but afterwards when I am out of the cinema and more rational again I think 'hmm, just another twistmovie'. And apart from the twist nothing really interesting going on. A well regarded movie where I didn't like the twist was 'The Usual Suspects'. The cinematography and acting was obviously well done, but only looking at the plot I thought it wasn't impressive taking away the twist. I am probably triggering now a couple readers, for that I am sorry. However this is not a critique of this movie, but more of an example. I also think this is the reason why M. Night Shyamalan was so well recieved in the start of his career and now he is way less regarded than at that time. Because he does it all the time, and then it surfaces that it is a cheap movie 'plot device'. If he did it only once or twice people wouldn't have noticed it significantly. (I am sorry for spelling mistakes, I am not a native speaker) _____ > *Hello, users of CMV! This is a footnote from your moderators. We'd just like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please remember to* ***[read through our rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules)***. *If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which,* ***[downvotes don't change views](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/guidelines#wiki_upvoting.2Fdownvoting)****! If you are thinking about submitting a CMV yourself, please have a look through our* ***[popular topics wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/populartopics)*** *first. Any questions or concerns? Feel free to* ***[message us](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/changemyview)***. *Happy CMVing!*

[dasunt]

A good twist can challenge the viewer. With "The Usual Suspects", we see a gritty crime drama where a cop (actually a custom's agent) pries out the real story from a small-time con man caught up in a heist. It's the typical interrogation. Then the twist comes, and we're forced to reexamine things. We learn the narrator is unreliable. The belief of the cop that he really knows what happened has allowed him to be lead to a false conclusion. If we knew that from the beginning, the emphasis of the movie would change - instead it would be about a master criminal misleading a member of law enforcement. Or take "A Beautiful Mind". We get to see a story about an intellectual forced into cloak & dagger to help the war. Then the twist happens, and we can identify with the main character and what's really happening precisely because we're in the dark with the main character. Yes, twists can be cheap. They can be poorly done. But they can also be a valid method of storytelling.

[JohnDoeSnow]

All stories can be summed up in one sentence. "Everything isn't what it seems". I don't recall who originally said that, and I am paraphrasing, but I think it holds true. A story will start out with you becoming acquainted the setting and premise of the story, and as you go along you will get more details that change your view on the characters, the conflict, theme, etc. A twist is just that, learning more vital information on the story, only more dramatic and severe. In the beginning of A Game of Thrones, book 1 of A Song Of Ice and Fire, we learn that the realm the story (mostly) takes place in is ruled by King Robert Baratheon. He seems like a jolly boisterous fellow and the realm seems all and good, but through the inner thoughts of Ned Stark (along with many other people) that many crimes were committed to secure Roberts throne. We then see Robert want to do more terrible things to remove any challenge to his throne. It changes how we view the recent history of the setting, and how we view the character of many of the stories characters. In fight club we eventually learn that Tyler Durden was the narrator the whole time. It changes how we view the whole story, the point of the story, the characters, etc all pretty dramatically. One is considered a twist, the other isn't. They both are just added details to change and challenge the way we view the story. A twist is just a more dramatic version of that.

[koalanotbear]

Theres two types. One out of the blue, or one that has clues the entire time. Youre mixing the two up, the one out of the blue is cheap i agree. But your making a mistake in lumping the clued twist with that. A really well done twist is one where if you are actually smart, you really can tell its going to happen the whole movie, because theres these tiny clues that show it, like a prop reappering or a logical error in a characters dialogue, the average viewer might not see or notice the clue, someone paying attention will, and that is actually difficult to pull off. The problem is that sometimes they are just shit blind twists that are cheap, giving the really good ones a bad rep

[1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k]

I also meant that the one that 'can be figured out' is cheap. However in a certain case I do agree it is not a cheap way to become complexer, as in Inception.

[bobthebobd]

Some movies are told from the point of view of one or very few characters. You find out the twist at same time as them, thus you can experience the movie from their point of view. A good example is Sixth Sense, where you are basically experiencing the story through Bruce Willis point of view. Fight Club also makes sense, because the main character finds out about the twist at same time as audience.

[1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k]

Plot twists are indeed internally consistent to the plot. However for me it is an overdone and simple way to appear complex for the writer.

[raanne]

Movies such as Fight Club and Gone Girl are "twist" movies because they are based on "plot twist" books. I've never personally read gone girl, but I read fight club before they turned it into a movie. I thought the movie was good, even though I knew the twist before I watched it. The first-person argument makes sense on Fight Club, The Usual Suspects, or Sixth Sense though, because the audience is given the reveal at the same time as the main character. Which makes sense for a first-person narrative.

[DHCKris]

Almost all plots rely on "twists," no matter how small. For example, in STAR WARS, Han Solo comes back to save Luke from Darth Vader despite indicating he wanted to leave after being paid for rescuing the Princess. In THE GODFATHER, Michael Corleone visits his father in the hospital and we are as surprised as he is to learn that his father's guards have been dismissed. Sonny is murdered. The undertaker from the first scene re-appears later for his "favor" to the Don. In TOY STORY, Woody's world is shaken by the emergence of a new toy. In MALTESE FALCON, the femme fatale isn't what she seems and the falcon isn't real. In BACK TO THE FUTURE, Marty stumbles into the memory of his parents' meeting mentionedearlier and disturbs it. Plot relies on twists, but it appears you are speaking about a certain *kind* of twist that appears mindblowing for the sake of it. In that sense, your view is a tautology: meaning that it proves itself: twists are cheap when they're cheap. Good twists are good when you don't notice them. Almost all conventional movies have them.

[1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k]

[STA-CITE]> Almost all plots rely on "twists," no matter how small. For example, in STAR WARS, Han Solo comes back to save Luke from Darth Vader despite indicating he wanted to leave after being paid for rescuing the Princess. In THE GODFATHER, Michael Corleone visits his father in the hospital and we are as surprised as he is to learn that his father's guards have been dismissed. Sonny is murdered. The undertaker from the first scene re-appears later for his "favor" to the Don. In TOY STORY, Woody's world is shaken by the emergence of a new toy. In MALTESE FALCON, the femme fatale isn't what she seems and the falcon isn't real. In BACK TO THE FUTURE, Marty stumbles into the memory of his parents' meeting mentionedearlier and disturbs it. [END-CITE]These are not radical changes in the plot that could count as a plot twist. You are stretching the definition significantly [STA-CITE]> Plot relies on twists, but it appears you are speaking about a certain kind of twist that appears mindblowing for the sake of it. In that sense, your view is a tautology: meaning that it proves itself: twists are cheap when they're cheap. [END-CITE]Twists are an easy way to appear complex in a plot. I don't really see how this sentence proves itself. (like if you are either a soldier or you're not). [STA-CITE]> Good twists are good when you don't notice them. [END-CITE]It is hard to notice a radical change in plot, maybe I understand you wrong. [STA-CITE]> Almost all conventional movies have them. [END-CITE]That is a pretty broad statement there without evidence, almost all movies have plot twists?

[DHCKris]

[STA-CITE]>those are not radical changes in the plot that could count as a plot twist [END-CITE]Why does a plot twist have to be radical? Who decides what is radical and what isn't? To a five-year-old, Han Solo returning to save Luke Skywalker could be radical. Plot, itself, relies on changes and unexpected occurances to drive it forward. All movies with a conventional plot work this way. You have a problem with especially radical twists, but all plots have twists to some degree. You are only noting radical twists for their trivilaity and failing to recognize more subtle twists and turns becausw they work well. My point is that twists are necessary. You are not realizing that a radical twist like at the end of THE USUAL SUSPECTS isn't the only kind of twist. Most movies have twists like that to a lesser degree. Plot depends on changes like that.

[1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k]

I think this is a definition issue, with you using a different one than me. And you are right that 'radical' is not an absolute term. For me radical means also very significant, that the sole twist impacts the whole narrative, before and after the twist. The Usual Suspects, Signs, Memento etcetera. Any change in the plot wouldn't really fit into that definition.

[DHCKris]

That is a certain kind of twist. What I am saying is, since all plot requires changes and developments, unexpected turns and revalations, how do you evaluate what makes something radical or not? THE USUAL SUSPECTS does somethint not unlike STAR WARS - it ends with a character revealing something about himself at a crucial moment (that Han is capable of caring about more than money) and something unexpected happening. If it works in one movie, why not another? What does it matter *how* unexpected it is?

[1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k]

You are talking about character development, unexpected or not. This is not what I consider a plot twist, since it is more specific to a character. I didn't question 'how' unexpected it is. I agree with you that there is a sliding scale, just like the notion if somebody is tall or not. Movie critque is not an exact science. For a look at how I see a plot twist, see [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_twist) or [tvtropes](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotTwist).

[cleansoap]

[STA-CITE]> Plot relies on twists, but it appears you are speaking about a certain kind of twist that appears mindblowing for the sake of it. In that sense, your view is a tautology: meaning that it proves itself: twists are cheap when they're cheap. Good twists are good when you don't notice them. Almost all conventional movies have them. [END-CITE]I see how you have 50 deltas. Very nice work.

[Cheeseboyardee]

Although you are focusing on the "twist" (as is a plot device).. it is in fact PLOT in and of itself that is a cheap way to make people feel a movie is "smart". Any movie, play, sketch, skit, or even advertisement that relies on plot to be interesting is going to be terrible. Two teenagers meet, pine over each other, face family disapproval. In desperation to have their lover: one of the two fakes their death without the others knowledge. The other teenager then takes their own life in grief. Upon awakening the fire teenager actually takes their own life and the families grief ends the squabble between the the two families. I have absolutely ZERO interest in seeing the plot listed above. Which is fine. Because that is not what Billy S. wanted us to remember about the show. But it's easy to talk about. Good luck talking to people about thematic exploration or character arcs/twists unless you're in a very refined group. Yeah, Han shot first... but do you know why that simple action fundamentally changed the movie in the re-edit? Most people can't, it's just not how they remember stories. But they'll remember a plot twist. "Luke I am your Father" "Soylent Green is People" "It was Earth all along" Those plot twists stick out in your mind much more than the character twists/arcs that are what really matter from a storytelling perspective. They're only "cheap" because they aren't important. But they are memorable. So you're technically correct in that plot twists are cheap, but only because PLOT as a whole is cheap.

[n_5]

I'm going to have a hard time citing evidence here, since my movie knowledge is practically zip (not my favorite medium, and I'm woefully undereducated in terms of them), but speaking as a fan of fiction more generally: A twist is a plot device. It's in the same class as starting a movie [in medias res](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_medias_res) (Inception, for example) or throwing in a [deus ex machina](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina). None of these things are inherently cheap - it's just that oftentimes, when a director pulls one of these out, he/she uses it cheaply. [STA-CITE]> Basically my point is that it is a too simple way to make a movie 'smarter' and an overdone method of 'blowing peoples minds'. [END-CITE]It depends on the twist, to be honest. I can imagine a movie which brilliantly deconstructs the idea of the twist that would be excellent and not cheap at all. Say the twist happens in the first 20 minutes of the movie - [the character you thought was the main character gets killed off or something like that](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_protagonist) - and the rest of the movie is about coping with that sudden twist. It turns from an action war movie or whatever to a drama about the character's family suffering from the grief of having their son/brother/father/husband (if the character is male, anyway) ripped away from them too soon. I wouldn't call this "cheap" at all - it could make for a really interesting discussion on death in wartime or a really great portrayal of a family in chaos, and could be done incredibly carefully and richly. Remember, not every twist is made solely to surprise the audience. From what I understand about your post, I think you're complaining about the movies which are *all about twist* - that is, their entire purpose is to lead up to the twist ending which takes the audience's breath away. If you acknowledge that not every twist is this cheap - and that it's possible for a twist to be incredibly nuanced and totally alter the direction and tone of a movie - then I think you'll find that your generalization isn't necessarily true in all cases.

[1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k]

[STA-CITE]> None of these things are inherently cheap - it's just that oftentimes, when a director pulls one of these out, he/she uses it cheaply. [END-CITE]They are indeed not 'inherently' cheap, just like a prince saves the princess is not an 'inherently' cheap plot device. But I think both became cheap by being overdone and becoming a simple addition in a story to transform in something that is intended. [STA-CITE]> It depends on the twist, to be honest. [END-CITE]The 'false protagonist' twist is a very specific twist and it could set up a great and amusing story as you said. But imagine a story like you just said, starting from the perspective of a false protagonist and not. Just adding that little twist is an extra way and not complex to surprise people/get them going. I am not saying it would be nonamusing, but it wouldn't be a complex way to seem complex. [STA-CITE]> Remember, not every twist is made solely to surprise the audience. From what I understand about your post, I think you're complaining about the movies which are all about twist - that is, their entire purpose is to lead up to the twist ending which takes the audience's breath away. If you acknowledge that not every twist is this cheap - and that it's possible for a twist to be incredibly nuanced and totally alter the direction and tone of a movie - then I think you'll find that your generalization isn't necessarily true in all cases. [END-CITE]The bigger the plot relies on the twist for amusement, the bigger my problem indeed is. And I guess you made a good point that it is nuanced and shouldn't be overly generalized. However, I still don't see that plot twists aren't a simple plot device to appear deeper. You made a very specific example with a specific plot twist.

[bluefyre73]

Twists are done because they are intended to be a plot development or character reveal the audience would not expect to happen. A twist fails completely when it is predictable. When the story is built in a way that makes you think something is going to happen; but in fact, something you never expected occurs, you feel more engaged in the story because it is legitimately unpredictable. There's a reason twists aren't typically revealed until halfway or three quarters of the way through a movie, and that's because a twist revealed too early has no time to subvert your expectations-while one revealed too late has no legitimate impact on the rest of the story. No doubt some movies use twists to try to appear "smart," but it has an actual purpose from a storytelling perspective in keeping things atypical.

[1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k]

Thanks for replying. I don't really see what part of my opinion you are challenging. If I understand you correctly, you explained how a plottwist is used. My point it is an overdone and cheap way basically.

[bluefyre73]

My point is that plot twists are not done for the sake of making a movie seem smarter, they are done for engagement purposes.

[1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k]

~~Well as I said in my post I agree that it 'heightens liking', and that it isn't non-amusing. If I am right you are now trying to answer the question 'why' they are done. I am not debating that. I am in a sense 'reflecting' on a plot device.~~ EDIT: As the replyers point out my argument is invalid and I agree with them. I think everything in a movie is doing to keep viewers engaged. That is ultimatele role of writing. By that you use plotdevices, like twists. Which I think is a cheap way to blow the viewers mind.

[cleansoap]

What is your view which is subject to change, then? For as interesting and verbose as your CMV post is, it's starting to smell of soapboxing.

[1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k]

You are right, I changed the post. I didn't fully realize his point.

[cleansoap]

IMHO (this is not, as far as I can tell, in the rules) you should award /u/bluefyre73 a delta. I know you probably think the issue is that you failed to adequately state your view, not that your previously held view was changed, and because of that I think continuing the thread might very well prove more successful than a revised resubmission... but when it comes down to brass tacks what IS the difference between helping one to hone their view and changing their view?

[prisonstrength]

In the title of your post, you say that they are put into films to make them appear smarter. If /u/bluefyre73 challenges that part of the view, he's challenging your view. You made the "why" part of your view when you put it in the title.

[1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k]

You are right, I changed my post.

[MilesBeyond250]

A good twist is really hard to pull off, because it has to walk a very thin line. If it's too predictable, then it's not a twist at all; if it's not predictable enough, then it's just going to seem silly (e.g. If, for example, LOTR had a plot twist where Sam was actually Saruman in disguise the whole time, absolutely no one would see that coming - but that's because it's a bloody stupid idea that makes absolutely no sense). So pulling a twist off well is a matter of feeding the audience just enough foreshadowing that they have an idea of what's coming, but not so much that they're bored when it actually happens. In other words, a good twist feeds more off suspense than surprise. I would say that The Usual Suspects is an example of a bad twist. It's a twist that ends up invalidating a good chunk of what you've seen. In other words, it's a twist that reveals that the movie has been lying to you. IMHO Inception is a better twist, because it relies more on suspense than surprise. The possibility of being trapped in a dream is raised quite a few times. This sounds a few bells in the audience's mind: "Okay, not being able to distinguish between dreams and reality seems like a major theme here, that'll probably be relevant to the plot later." So we have a sense, a feeling, that maybe Dom is more embroiled in this world of dreams than he thinks. When we learn about what really happened with his wife, or see the top spinning at the end, it's a good twist because it's something that's been germinating in our minds for a while. We look at that and say "Aha! I knew that would come into play somehow, I just didn't know how or when." Hitchcock often spoke of the value of suspense over surprise. One of my favourite examples of this is him discussing a bombing. If you have a five minute scene where two people are having a conversation at a table, then a bomb under the table explodes, the audience is completely shocked - but only briefly. If, however, you start the scene with someone planting the bomb then sneaking out, and during the course of the conversation cut to the bomb ticking down, then the entire conversation people are on the edge of their seats. The dialogue is cast in a whole new light, knowing that there's something about to happen. Moreover, it fuses in a bit of uncertainty: Will the bomb explode? Will they find it in time? If they find it, how will they defuse it? etc. A good twist is the same way. A twist that no one sees coming is a bad twist. Everyone's shocked when it happens - for about thirty seconds. A good twist is one that is slowly and gradually introduced, to build suspense. People are fairly certain that something will happen, but they don't know how, or why, or when. For example: Betrayal. You've got a film where a group of people are working to accomplish something. One of the people on the team is a traitor. A bad twist is one where, at the climax of the film, the traitor is suddenly revealed. A better twist is one where we find out part way through the movie that there's a traitor on the team, but we don't know who. This is still revealed at the end, but we spend the rest of the movie thinking "Hmmm, okay how and why will the betrayal happen? Who will be the traitor?" Everything is cast in the light of this knowledge that someone is going to betray the rest of the team. We may guess right, we may not, but either way (if it's a good movie) we're on the edge of our seats right up until the last minute, waiting to find out the exact circumstances of the twist we already kinda know. tl;dr A bad twist is something that takes us by complete surprise; a good twist is one that provides new context, nuance, and depth to the rest of the movie.

[idiot_speaking]

I agree with most of your stuff but I don't think the surprise element in the twist inherently makes it bad. I could certainly see it working in a movie about lies and deception, and then you find the character you trusted is actually a bad guy bam it hits you outta nowhere, but when you look at it would've made sense as it fits perfectly with the theme of the movie. I think what I'm trying to say is a "susprise" twist can also be a good one if it provides "new context, nuance, and depth to the rest of the movie." Edit: I wanted to add "F for Fake" as an example but the truth is that the movie shouts at you in the beginning that they will lie at you at sometime, however at that moment when the truth is revealed you are so wrapped up in the story you kinda forget about the beginning. The twist was anticipated but at was also forgotten at moment of reveal. Also the twist also went with the overall theme of the movie - which was about the art of faking. So I guess in a way "F for Fake" does act as example for my point, I guess.

[1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k1k]

So in a sense a good twist is one full of suspension which is difficult to film, write. I guess I agree. And now that I think of it, the plot twist in inception at the end could've been removed and it would be still a great movie. By adding it people really are sparked around the central question: Is he finally in a real world. A great plot twist is therefore as you said a versatile plot device and not with a simple function. Since you changed my view: I'll award you a delta. ∆

[koalanotbear]

I dont think inception is a good example ots really simple. Looper is a good twisty movie. Time lapse is a good twisty movie

[MilesBeyond250]

But that's kind of my point - the complexity or "mind-bending-ness" of a twist is really rather independent of whether it's a good twist. Edit: You know what? Let's roll with this for a moment. See, I would actually argue that the simpler the twist, the better. First, I think that a good twist should keep new information to a minimum. A good twist is not one that tells you something you didn't know, but rather one that takes things you did know and pieces them together in a crazy way. Obviously this will require some new information, but I feel like the general rule of thumb is that if your twist requires a character giving a monologue to explain it, you should try and tighten it up a bit. Second, the more complex the twist, the more moving parts you have - and therefore the more likely it is that the inevitable plot holes will jarr the audience out of the moment. Third, the more complex the twist, the harder it is for the audience to see it coming. This may seem like a good thing, but as per my first post, it really isn't. It's like... you ever play adventure games? Sierra and Lucasarts? A good adventure game puzzle is one where, upon figuring it out, you say "I can't believe I didn't think of that sooner!" A bad puzzle is one that makes you say "Man, what? How was I ever supposed to think of *that*?" Twists are the same way. If it's too out of left field, it becomes frustrating and confusing. If it's something no one can logically puzzle out, then it's probably completely illogical. A good twist is something that makes you pause and go "...holy crap that's been right in front of me the whole time!" I might put forward Sixth Sense as a good example of this (though I'm a little hesitant to as I've not seen it in ages and could be misremembering it). Very simple twist, really, when you get down to it, and yet it checks most of the boxes for good twist.

[DeltaBot]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/MilesBeyond250. ^[[History](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/MilesBeyond250)] ^[[Wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltabot)][[Code](https://github.com/alexames/DeltaBot)][/r/DeltaBot]

[JPLR]

On a side note, if the world of bad movie twists has got you down and you would like to see one with a well-executed twist(s) then I think you'd enjoy *[The Prestige](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0482571/)*. Just in case you haven't seen it yet.