WMN: t3_3fveyg_t1_ctshk93

[TITLE]

CMV: I don't like tipping.

[litle5o]

Leaving a tip feels so customary in certain places that it's become an incentive to do your job properly. I understand that it's the service that they provide and not just the food, but isn't that exactly what they're paid for? To give a paying customer a good service? Although I sympathize with their outrageously low wages, but why should I have to fork out more of my money that I'm already spending at a restaurant to subsidize young Jenny here, to get her up to normal living wage? Isn't that a governmental issue of poverty/low wages?

[Glory2Hypnotoad]

The thing I think you're not accounting for is that restaurants set their prices with the cost of an average tip in mind. If we abolish tipping, that same amount would just be added to the cost of the meal. Tipping simply gives you the freedom to pay a little more or a little less based on your satisfaction.

[suddenly_ponies]

[STA-CITE]> f we abolish tipping, that same amount would just be added to the cost of the meal. [END-CITE]Good. Let's do it now. Today. Yesterday even. The hassle and awkwardness of tipping is a barrier to authentic good service and should be abolished.

[Glory2Hypnotoad]

How is it a barrier to authentic good service? A tip is a way of commenting with your wallet on the quality of service. It allows you to give feedback that matters because it affects the server's and restaurant's bottom line.

[suddenly_ponies]

If they believe they won't get a good tip anyway (restaurant is too busy, they judge that you can't/won't tip), they have no reason to treat you well. Also, I don't believe service with the intent of begging for tips is authentic. [STA-CITE]> It allows you to give feedback that matters because it affects the server's and restaurant's bottom line. [END-CITE]So does repeat business or never coming back or complaining/praising to management. Tips are a waste of time and largely end up only being a negative thing.

[zzMojaveExpress]

Yes, the service is what they are paid for, but mostly, the people paying them are you and the other customers. The restaurant pays them like $2/hr I'm pretty sure. You basically hire them. I like paying a server directly. I think in general, it helps servers make more money than they otherwise would (if they get lots of customers). If tipping went away I would probably end up paying about the same amount of money for food, it would just shift to the owner/corporation instead of the servers.

[Bob_Sconce]

In the US, at least, if an employee receives less than minimum wage AFTER tips, the employer must make up the difference. So, you and the other customers are basically subsidizing the employer's labor costs.

[zzMojaveExpress]

I would imagine if they actually had to do this often, prices would go up. I would also imagine that server who doesn't get enough tips is soon replaced by one who does.

[Bob_Sconce]

You're probably right on both counts. I also suspect that if this happened to any server regularly, he/she would probably quit and find another job -- waiting tables is too hard of work to only be earning minimum.

[commandrix]

I see tips for people like waiters and taxi cab drivers as being the same as paying a freelancer to do a job for you. It's an incentive for that person to actually be productive. Last time I took a taxi cab, I had a $20 bill in my hand and he knew that was what he was going to get regardless of how long it took him to get from the airport to the hotel, so he knew not to take any unnecessary "detours". And not that long ago, I went out to eat with a group of friends and a couple of them weren't getting that food. Long story short, the kitchen hadn't gotten their order and they ended up putting the food into some takeout boxes to take home. Not only did they not have to pay the tab, but the waiter didn't get the tip he would have gotten otherwise. Tip jars originally had "To Insure Promptness" written on them. If you were in a hurry, you could toss a few coins in that jar and the waitress would get to you first, and that phrase eventually got shortened into the word "tip". If the waitress knows you're a pretty good tipper, she's going to get around to you pretty quickly. That's just the way it is.

[aquabatarrowlantern]

I'm sure everyone else covered the whole issue with waitresses being paid less than minimum wage. Regarding everyone else, you don't have to but why not? If you have the means it's just an extra good deed you can do. I mean if I'm in a rush I won't hold a door open for a handicapped person just as you wouldn't tip if you just got fired. Look it's not mandatory but an extra dollar in the tip jar is just a nice thing to do. Me and my coworkers have a karma system where we believe if we tip others will tip us.

[litle5o]

To me it wasn't about that. I don't mind doing good deeds and gestures but feeling obligated is different

[aquabatarrowlantern]

People are only obligated for restraunt style tips which I assumed was covered. I was mainly focusing on coffee shops and jamba juices etc. I would argue that tips are only obligated if the customer is more needy than usual eg: "I want my smoothie with soy milk and can you take out the blabla because it has gluten and replace it with blabla"

[jayman419]

Why is it only the people waiting your table that gets your ire? Is it because you think all they do is carry a plate from the kitchen window to your table, discounting all the other little things they do to make your dining experience more enjoyable? What about taxi drivers, delivery drivers, the kid who brings your newspaper, room service, bellhops, concierges, hairdressers, masseuses, bartenders, housekeepers, shoe shiners, coat checkers, babysitters, movers, the sommelier, the list goes on and on. What about all of those people? Because most of those people aren't *taxed* on their tips. Maybe pizza drivers pay taxes on expected tips. But for table wait staff, it doesn't matter what they make per hour. Even in states where they are paid more than $2.80 an hour they are still taxed at a minimum rate based on their receipts in a given shift. And they're not union workers. They're "at will" employees in most states. Even if they did organize a strike, and the restaurant didn't just fire them all and hire new "at will" employees... it's not just a matter of paying them more money (increasing the cost of food, by the way) .. it's a matter of changing the tax laws at a federal level. You can't do that with a strike. Add the new mandatory health coverage that's kicked in recently and most waitresses don't even get a paycheck. They get a receipt for (barely) covering their expenses.

[litle5o]

It's not just wait staff, it's tipping in general. Those waiting my table where an example of my view.

[jayman419]

But they're probably the worst example for the situations you've described, since they don't have a union to protect their jobs and have to pay mandatory taxes on an expected level of tips. (Bartenders may have to declare their tips after every shift, too. I'm not sure on that.)

[litle5o]

See, I was asking if a union strike or walk would be plausible and effective to help the situation. So rather than it being a bad example; it was probably the only example I could give, so I could get a reasonable answer.

[myshieldsforargus]

A tip allows customers to directly provide feedback to service staff about their quality of service. then by laws of natural selection, servers who are bad will not earn enough and will be competed out of business, they will go look for some other jobs where they can perform better, and they will naturally gravitate towards jobs where they are better at. customers are best to provide this feedback, because they are the ones receiving service. This only works, of course, when customers actually have the balls to not tip. Modern US customers are so spineless they would rather tip a bad server than to confront them and tell them about how bad they are. Also the fact that they always get tipped resulted in a sense of entitlement. If people only tip when service is good or exceptional, and refuse to tip when service is bad, servers will learn real fast to increase their quality of service, or quit. so the problem is not of tipping, but of modern american cowardice. tipping is allowing the free market mechanism to work on the servers market at full force, and free market is the best at allocating resources, in this case, allocating good servers to server positions.

[ThingsIWishICouldSay]

Do a google search for 'study on tipping' and find one single study that doesn't find young, attractive, white, women are apparently the best at customer service. Apparently young, attractive, black, women need to work on their customer service skills so they can make the natural selection cut. Tips as a means for reflecting customer service is ridiculously overstated. Almost everybody has a base calculation they start from and tweak a few percentage points when service is really bad or really good. Let's take a look at the bad that comes with all this good service level correction: •Racism- minorities consistently get tipped less •Servers ignoring small tables to work tips on big tables •Sexual flirting to bolster tips (check out the 'touch his arm' technique) •Sexism- Men earn less than women •It allows employers to avoid paying their waitstaff through normal channels and shifts the burden to the customer •Taxation is a mess of approximation where those who make the least in tips pay the most in taxes and those who make the most pay the least •Customers face social obligations to pay more for their meal if they are a 'good person who tips well' •All the fights and theft issues over cash being left out on tables and determining who gets a cut

[myshieldsforargus]

[STA-CITE]> and find one single study that doesn't find young, attractive, white, women are apparently the best at customer service. [END-CITE]if they are getting more money, then i will argue that they are providing a better service. if a patron would rather be served by a young attractive white women, then why shouldn't they be paid more? [STA-CITE]>minorities consistently get tipped less [END-CITE]perhaps because minorities need to work on customer service? by the way, asian females get more tip than whites, and asians are minority too. [STA-CITE]>Servers ignoring small tables to work tips on big tables [END-CITE]well, then the smaller tables will need to increase the tips to attract better servers [STA-CITE]>Sexual flirting to bolster tips [END-CITE]why is this wrong? [STA-CITE]>Men earn less than women [END-CITE]if women earn more, then i will argue that women provide better service, why else would people pay them more? [STA-CITE]>It allows employers to avoid paying their waitstaff through normal channels and shifts the burden to the customer [END-CITE]all the burden is on the customers, anyway, since all the expenses paid by the employers, including wages, come from sales which is paid by customers, so you are only just shuffling it around, there is no actual change [STA-CITE]>Taxation is a mess of approximation [END-CITE]this is a problem of the state trying to take money from people who earn their livings by working. it can not be used to suggest that tipping is bad. [STA-CITE]>Customers face social obligations to pay more for their meal [END-CITE]or customers can grow some balls and not do something they otherwise wouldn't want to do. surely you can not blame tipping for a bad consequence of social mechanism and not tipping itself [STA-CITE]>All the fights and theft issues over cash being left out on tables and determining who gets a cut [END-CITE]this problem could easily be solved by the employer making clear rules on the issue none of your problems are actual problems on tipping, it is either a problem of something else, or a mistaken belief that everybody should be paid the exactly same amount all the time, i.e. anti-free market socialist view. the free market is never sexist nor racist, it's only in trying to enforce equality of outcome is the problems of racism and sexism exacerbated

[cold08]

[STA-CITE]>why should I have to fork out more of my money that I'm already spending at a restaurant [END-CITE]You're paying for the service through the tip. That's why you pay the same for the food whether you get take out or someone waits on you. A tip is a service up charge, not a donation.

[suddenly_ponies]

[STA-CITE]> A tip is a service up charge, not a donation. [END-CITE]Service is part of the job and tips should have no bearing on it. It's a donation. Charity for someone who's wages are screwed over by bad laws and policies.

[cold08]

Okay, so let's say I buy a laptop. Now I can pay extra money to have it set up for me, or I can take it home and do it myself for free. You can insist that the setup should be part of the cost of the laptop all you want but it isn't. You wouldn't call paying for that service charity for the company that sold you the laptop would you? What confuses people is that since you're legally allowed not to pay it, it's not a legitimate charge, but since I don't get a discount for take out when I choose to serve myself, the cost of the service is not included in the food, therefore you have to pay extra for it.

[suddenly_ponies]

[STA-CITE]> You wouldn't call paying for that service charity for the company that sold you the laptop would you? [END-CITE]Nope. I would call that paying for extra service. But this analogy doesn't work for service in restaurants. The people in a restaurant SHOULD be polite, quick, and accurate. That's what I pay for when I go there because anything less would be sub-standard. What we're doing is paying them extra to meet a low bar that they should be meeting as a matter of course. To use your analogy, it would be like going to a store where the service of setting up your laptop is advertised as a free benefit, but if you don't pay an extra tip or service change when getting this "free benefit" you are considered rude and hated on.

[scottevil110]

Look at it this way: You're paying that tip one way or another. "Tipping culture" allows YOU to decide if and how much to tip. In a culture where you just have higher wages to begin with, that's not coming out of the business's pocket; it's coming out of yours. You just don't have a say in the matter. Good service, terrible service, it doesn't matter. You're paying the business owner more in the form of higher prices, and they're paying SOME of that onto your server. Tipping means the business owner isn't involved. You're giving your money straight to the employee, but it's not extra money. It's just a situation where part of the bill is left up to you.

[thedeliriousdonut]

Hiya. So, I'm from the US. And while I agree with you that the government needs to get their shit together and raise the wage for these employees, you should still tip. **Why?** Because what option is the ethical or moral option is based on the current situation. The current situation is these employees have low wages. Sure, they shouldn't have to have low wages, just like puppies shouldn't have to be abused, but they do have low wages and your wage is likely higher. And sure, if the government gave them higher wages, it would not be too much of a moral discrepancy to not tip, but that's not the case. I could say, before killing someone, that if this weren't an old lady and she were threatening my life and is also the next Hitler, then I am justified in this killing. But none of that is the case. This is an innocent old lady, no variant I can imagine changes that. Yes, push for legislation to make wages better. But if someone has a low wage, tipping helps them. It's that simple.

[suddenly_ponies]

But the argument isn't "I won't tip", it's "I don't like it". I for one DO tip because of what you said, but I hate it and would support it being illegalized (the part about structuring someone's pay based on tipping)..

[litle5o]

I somewhat agree with you. But can I ask what your opinion on if we stopped tipping or wait staff demanded higher pay through union strike, would this help aid the situation? IMO tipping is adding to the problem and allowing establishments exploit their employees as they see it as 'no need to raise wages, they're pretty happy making wages that are not set in stone from people who aren't me'. If this was challenged could this help? Like I said, I'm from the UK and the restaurant industry is very different here. So maybe my lack of knowledge is where my view comes from. I'm all for helping people out and I do tip on occasion (here in the UK) is the server is going above and beyond with astounding service, but that's normally with returning custom. I guess my problem is with the moral obligation to tip rather than the act of tipping.

[thedeliriousdonut]

The industry here is so lousy with their wages that the amount of damage you do in the short term when you don't tip outweighs the possibility of the long term change, especially given that you can tip and push for legislation that increases the wages of these workers, which would be the best of both worlds. I think.

[Tarediiran]

Although you personally do not like tipping, the custom exists for good reason. If people did not tip and servers had to earn their living from only wages, food prices would increase to compensate the additional cost required to sustain the servers. In addition to this, not tipping is typically frowned upon because the stiff is disregarding the server's humanity. Eliminating the tip would not save money for anyone in the long run because restaurants will simply up the price of their food. Imagine a scenario in which one had to pay $10 + at least 20% tips, thus raising the price to $12. If tipping ceased, the restaurant would simply raise the initial price of the food to $12. The consumer still has to pay the same amount. However, under the tip system, servers can try to provide better service because they have an incentive for doing so. Tipping helps both the consumer and the server, and as such, it is more preferrable to tip than provide a base wage. The server is paid a base wage of +/- $2/hour to ensure that they walk home with at least something. It's a protection of their income stability, much like how many salespeople of supermarkets like Walmart are paid much lower than what the skill demands because salespeople make commission. The base wage for a server is not meant to sustain the server. It is only meant to be used as a backup if income from tips is too low. Servers actually earn their money from providing and enhancing a good service by taking away plates and bringing food to the customer. Keep in mind that when consumers pay the price tag for the meal, they are paying only for the cook's labor and the cost of the ingredients. Tips are not factored in because they provide an incentive for servers to give giving a better service. While you may argue that cooks should be tipped too under this logic because then cooks have an incentive to cook better, the action is simply unrealistic to implement because a cook spends most of his or her time optimizing efficiency in the kitchen. To have to deal with tips is to immediately handicap the maximum achievement the cooks can accomplish. People who serve are doing so to sustain their families. They try to provide the best service because they need something from you: money. A person who does not tip goves everyone else around him or her that he or she is rich, but chooses to spend cheaply anyway. It's a rude gesture, especially when someone else (the server) is expending a reasonable effort to provide the consumer with a better environment surrounding a meal. Tipping shows some respect to the server, which is arguably more important than saving $2 here and there. It's common knowledge that people didn't pay for the service up front and that stiffing the server results in making the server's life harder to live.

[litle5o]

∆ What I didn't realise was how much the tip benefited the actual server. Yes I'm aware they get a shitty pay and tips make up for that, but I looked at it more along the lines of "Well it only seems like they're going to give me a good service as long as I tip at the end, so why should I subsidise your wage if you'd give me a crappy service anyway" I also didn't realise how much it affected their wage. Although I still believe a change in the system of minimum wage in the US and the abolishment of morally obligated tipping to hopefully stop the capitalistic establishment from screwing over their wait staff, but for the time being especially with the usual wait staff's socioeconomic status, tipping seems the best way to keep servers safe. Most of all, I wasn't that knowledgable about the US's restaurant industry and how tips are factored in to it. Good job!

[Bob_Sconce]

You should be aware that (in the US) if a server makes less than minimum, after tips, the employer has to make up the difference. Servers always* get at least minimum. (*Always some shady owner out there who won't make up the difference. And, always possible to fire people who don't make tips.)

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[litle5o]

Edited, please rescan

[TheMentalist10]

Depending on where you are, you may have misunderstood the causes of tipping culture. In, for example, the UK, tipping is supplementary: you're adding something to a not-great, but not-awful wage as a thanks for good service. It would be unusual *not* to tip something, but by no means is it a huge deal. In the US, tipping is factored in as part of the wage. Employers pay less, as I understand it, on the basis that tips will make up the rest of an acceptable, 'living' wage. This is a pretty disgusting practice, but makes not tipping a serious statement of discontent. Think of the tip as part of the budget for the dinner, not as a little extra.

[litle5o]

Maybe I have misunderstood it as I am from the UK, and can only comment on my time spent in the US and what I've heard. Still very confused on why tipping is factored as part of the wage? I'm all for helping people out and tipping if it's above and beyond astounding service, but I don't think that it's my responsibility to like I said, subsidise wait staff for their capitalistic employers? Surely this is an issue that needs to be taken up with government about living wage? I see tipping as adding to the problem rather than solving it. If we stopped tipping, surely employers would be forced to pay a higher wage as wait staff would either strike or walk out/get another job Edit: I don't know if I'm being naive here to the work scheme of the US, just a genuine confusion for the situation

[Circle_Breaker]

The general thought is that you pay for the food, then you pay for the service. No waiter would ever want the current system to change. Because as is most can make well above minimum wage, which is what they would be making if the government intervened.

[TheMentalist10]

I completely agree: it's a pretty despicable, brutally Capitalistic idea, in my opinion. It comes, I suppose, in part from a sense of encouraging people to earn their pay. One of those wonderful delusions of 'if you work real hard, you could become a millionaire on your tips alone, kid!' which has never (and will never) come to fruition. In practice, it's just exploitation, and—again, *in my opinion*,—damages the whole service relationship as there's a pretty explicit sense of pretence. I think it undermines good service *for its own sake*. This extract from [an Esquire article](http://www.esquire.com/food-drink/restaurants/a23132/why-tipping-should-be-illegal-15603180/) is quite pertinent: [STA-CITE]>You are not technically stealing if you don't tip the customary 15 to 20 percent, but that's probably the best that can be said of you. The tip you pay is a sort of wage: federal law allows tips to be used to make up the difference between a server's salary and minimum wage, meaning they can make as little as £1.28 ($2) to £1.93 ($3) per hour from their restaurant employer. Tips are absolutely depended upon to make up the shortfall. [END-CITE]When you leave a bad tip, you are docking a person's wages. This may either be because you're confused about what's expected or because you're an asshole, and you really believe that your sea bass arriving lukewarm is justly punishable by making it a little harder for the guy who brought it to you to pay his rent. In terms of changing your view, I think not-liking tipping is fair enough. But, in the US, at least it's something I feel you're morally obliged to take part in.

[man2010]

They are working for their wages, the only difference is that in some industries those wages come straight from the customer instead of the customer's money going to the business owner and then back to the employees. Tipping essentially cuts out the middle man, and allows you to directly pay the person providing you with a service instead of giving your money to the business, having the business take its cut, and then giving some of that money back to the employees. As for why you should have to, well, technically you don't (unless the restaurant/business includes a tip as a part of your bill). If tipping was eliminated then you would probably see an increase in the price of tipped services to make up for the increased wages of servers. In other words, your $10 cheeseburger might go up to $12 to make up for the 20% tip that people don't leave anymore. So instead of paying $10 with a $2 tip for that cheeseburger, you're paying $12 with no tip so the restaurant can pay its servers more than $3/hr. On top of that, the servers don't have as much of an incentive to provide top notch service since they'll be making the same amount regardless. You're drinks might take longer to get refilled, or your food might take longer to be brought to you. You're still paying the same amount, but now you're getting worse service.

[litle5o]

I understand that it cuts out the middle man and gives directly to the employee and in theory that's great. I guess what I fail to understand is why the establishment is not in someway forced to provide a suitable living wage to the employee. Would you say that the increase of the food price be from the restaurant trying to make ends meet, or out of maximisation of profit? In regards to the incentive: this is what frustrates me, there shouldn't have to be an incentive of 'extra money' in my opinion. You are paid to provide a service already and that's your wage. If the wage isn't suitable, then perhaps a call for change is in order? On top of that, if you're doing a shitty job 'cause you know you're going to get paid at the end of the day is surely bad service, and should be fired? Why isn't the system changed to meet the requirements and produce a solid pay, rather than the wait staff depending on money to determine their wage? I hope my naivety doesn't come across conservative. Note: I'm from the UK where tipping isn't customary. Most UK restaurants are either large chains or independents that are thriving IMO.

[man2010]

The establishment is forced to pay the employees minimum wage if their tips do not equal it, so yes, the establishment is forced to provide a suitable wage for the employee (assuming that minimum wage is a suitable wage, but that's a whole separate discussion). The increase in food prices would be to make ends meet and to maximize profits. Businesses aren't run simply to break even, they're run so that the owners can make money. Sure, maybe restaurants would be able to break even by paying their servers more while keeping the price of food the same, but it isn't realistic for any business to operate on the idea that it should only make ends meet and break even instead of make a profit. As for incentives for servers, yeah, in an ideal world everyone would give 100% at their jobs, but there are plenty of these jobs available with few qualifications needed and all with relatively similar pay. If someone doesn't try that hard and they get fired it isn't really a big deal for them since it's easy enough to find another low-skill, low-wage job. There generally isn't a ton of room to advance in these types of jobs, so what's the incentive for employees to improve their quality of work? I've been abroad to places where tipping isn't customary, but not to the UK/Europe. I'm curious if the lack of tipping drives up the price of food. I would assume it does since restaurants have higher costs from having to pay servers now, but I don't have any data to back this up. Like I explained before, I the end the customer probably pays the same amount, but I would guess that a $10 cheeseburger in the U.S. would be a $12 cheeseburger in the UK (assuming all else is equal). In the end both customers pay the same price, but the U.S. customer can decide to pay less if they received poor service.

[SquirrelPower]

[STA-CITE]> there shouldn't have to be an incentive of 'extra money' in my opinion [END-CITE]But every job in the world (well.. at least in America) has an incentive of 'extra money'. If you do a good job you get a good performance review and you get a raise. That's an incentive! Restaurants (and other service industries that include tipping, like barbers) are unique in that ***you*** the customer are in charge of who gets a raise, not the management. Personally, I think that's great. And from my time in restaurants I know it works (at least to a degree) -- servers who like their job and strive to be good at it make more money than servers who don't. (Well... servers who were good at faking it made more money too, but same thing -- they still provide great service!) Telling people they should provide good service because 'it's their job' is how you get crappy service.

[mortemdeus]

[STA-CITE]>But every job in the world (well.. at least in America) has an incentive of 'extra money'. If you do a good job you get a good performance review and you get a raise. That's an incentive! [END-CITE]You have been very fortunate compared to most people in America I know. Also, at this point, a 10% tip is a "bad" tip you give for poor service and 20% is a good tip. Either way you are tipping...which is annoying because I feel like I should give you nothing if I see you exactly twice on a non-busy night and my water is empty the whole damn time.

[SquirrelPower]

I have absolutely no idea if you are agreeing with me or not... [STA-CITE]> I feel like I should give you nothing if I see you exactly twice on a non-busy night and my water is empty the whole damn time. [END-CITE]That's, like, my exact point. *You* are in charge. ***You*** have the power. Your tip is a performance review! Bad service should get a bad tip. That's how you let bad servers know they should find another job!

[mortemdeus]

What I am saying is that is not how things work here. If I do not tip because the server was bad then I am the one it reflects poorly on. Next time I come in most of the servers will treat me like shit because I "do not tip." Since their wage is tied to tips, they do not want to serve me because it impacts their livelihood, so I get caught in a negative feedback loop. Your service sucks, so I dont tip, so my tips suck, so everybody else refuses to serve me/half asses it, so I dont tip, so the place gives me a negative reputation and I never get good service (or food) from there after a while. Tipping becomes necessary so I can continue enjoying a place rather than a reflection on the service of the waiter.

[SquirrelPower]

Then, maybe, find a different restaurant? The 'negative feedback loop' works both ways. Maybe some places it works the way you described. But just as often the good servers -- servers who like their jobs and want to make money -- want the bad servers to quit, or at least work harder! After all, if a restaurant gets a reputation for bad service people stop going. Then no one makes money, whether they are good or bad at their job.

[FanoTheNoob]

What you are arguing for makes complete sense and should be the way things are, the way I see it, restaurants do this because they are wanting to maximize profits and use the tipped wage to force the customers to hand over the extra cash so they can spend less on payroll. I would say most servers are happy with this, however. Due to the still-pretty-low minimum wage in the U.S., most servers you come across will actually be opposed to abolishing tipped wages. Even with the criminally low tipped wage of $2.13/hr, a server's tips will, on average, still be much, much higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25/hr Servers will be more than happy to take the $2/hr wage because it will actually average out to something more like $15-$20 an hour thanks to the tipping culture that has been established here. If the federal minimum wage was a livable wage and tipping wages were abolished, I'd say there would be a good chance of eventually moving away from tipping culture. Until this is the case, however, all you're doing by not tipping at least 10% is taking away the wages of the server who is taking care of you, as income taxes and such often take away 100% of the hourly wage of these employees, if you spend an hour in a restaurant and don't leave a tip, chances are the server had to pay out of his own pocket in order to provide you their service, and that's a pretty shitty feeling.

[litle5o]

∆ That makes a lot of sense. The system needs to change before the tipping changes. As I'm from the UK I didn't realise the amount being made from tips, and that the price of food is in accordance to the average tip. I still believe the system needs to change so that the capitalistic establishments can't exploit the workers through wages; so that they can have financial stability in their workplace, but with minimum wage in the US, tips seem to be the best outcome in this case until an economic solution about minimum wage is reached nationwide.

[DeltaBot]

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[ReXone3]

[STA-CITE]> I guess what I fail to understand is why the establishment is not in someway forced to provide a suitable living wage to the employee. [END-CITE]In the US, employers *are* required to make up the difference betweeen the tipped wage ($2.13 an hour in most states when i served) and the normal minimum wage ($7.25 an hour), if tips do not make up the difference. It worth noting, however, that service workers tend to be young and inexperienced, and are unaware that they can demand this. Also, most people in a tipped job are uncomfortable making demands of their employer. It is also worth noting that the IRS assumes that servers make ~15% of their sales in tips, unless otherwise documented. That $2.13 an hour that your employer pays you? It goes straight to taxes -- most of your pay slips say something like "THIS IS NOT A CHECK". Edit to add: To reiterate: servers are not interested in minimum wage, they make much better money via tips. Guests would experience less stellar service if tips went away.

[che_mek]

[STA-CITE]> It worth noting, however, that service workers tend to be young and inexperienced, and are unaware that they can demand this. Also, most people in a tipped job are uncomfortable making demands of their employer. [END-CITE]I've worked a few restaurant jobs over the past few years. I'm well aware of this law. The real problem, in my opinion, isn't ignorance of the employees or discomfort with having a discussion about it, it's that you as a waiter/busboy/delivery boy are disposable. The restaurant has an incredibly high job turnover rate as it is. I've seen restaurants do some real shady shit (not paying for training, rounding hours down, etc.) and it's all because if you bring this shit up, you're gone and the restaurant is on to the next employee. Like I said, this is entirely from my personal experience which might be worse than a lot of people's considering most of my experience is from a shitty, no-longer-in-business restaurant

[ReXone3]

[STA-CITE]> The real problem, in my opinion, isn't ignorance of the employees or discomfort with having a discussion about it, it's that you as a waiter/busboy/delivery boy are disposable. [END-CITE]So you knew the law, but you thought it didn't apply to you because you were just a busboy? This is my point.

[matthewrozon]

No, what they're saying is that if you demand the minimum wage as per the law you'll be fired within the week

[che_mek]

Well I was more debating the "uncomfortable making demands of their employer" part. It wasn't so much discomfort, as it was "I will be fired (or alternately just given no hours) after this because they don't have much invested in me and don't have time for this" ... ya know? I'm also guessing there's a law protecting

[Sage_CFC]

The point about incentive is erroneous. You can get good service in thousands of buisness where the employees don't get tips. Grocery stores, department stores, restaurants without servers, movie theaters, auto shops etc. All have employees that don't get tips, and many of those businesses provide good service regularly. The entire idea of the servers losing incentive with the absence of tips shows the system is flawed. It shows they already expect to be tipped regardless of the quality of service they provide. This point is also backed up by the fact that many restaurants require you to tip on certain bills, completely taking the decision away from the customer on whether the service was good or not. If you pay them a living wage, that will provide enough of incentive to ensure good service, as it does with almost all other jobs. Waiting isn't hard, you don't need some special skill to do it. All you have to do is be respectable, aware, and decently fast. Again, like almost any other job.

[HoratioReddacted]

so clearly you have never been a server..... for one it is hard. like, really hard. you're on your feet all dy you get treated somewhere between an annoyance and a slave and you to take all of it, its super high paced and you dont get breaks if its busy and if its not you make no money finally, I have actually waited where I was paid hourly at a higher rate w/o tips and at regular tipped joints, I never gave anyone intentionally bad poor or slow service but I was not as friendly, engaging, outgoing, prompt, double checked accuracy, gave free shit, hooked up drinks or apps, came around to check as often, got plates out o the way fast, etc when I wasn't expecting a tip

[Sage_CFC]

I'm sorry, but cry me a river. There are a multitude of jobs where you are on you're fear all day and get shit from customers. I know for a fact cashiers do. They don't get tips. There's nothing special about waiting.

[HoratioReddacted]

Right. And on average they make hourly wages above minimum whereas serves makes far less than minimum wage per hour, if they don't get tipped they don't get paid , I'm not gonna cry but if you don't tip, seriously, you're a shitty person bc I don't care whether you think serving is easy or not, it at least deserves minimum wage

[man2010]

In the industries you named there either isn't a lot of room to provide above average service, or the price for these services differs depending on the quality of service. For example, every business you named besides auto shops provides basic services. When you go to the grocery store there isn't much the cashier can do for you besides ringing up your items, or when you go to the movie theater there isn't much more they can do for you aside from giving you your ticket and whatever food/drinks you buy. At an auto shop a more highly qualified mechanic will probably charge more for labor costs, just like a better server expects to receive higher tips. It's not that servers would lose the incentive to work hard without tips, it's that there isn't a huge incentive for workers in low-skilled, low-wage jobs to work hard in the first place since there are plenty of these jobs available for relatively the same pay. There also generally isn't a whole lot of opportunities for advancement in these types of positions and even then the opportunities for advancement don't offer huge post raises. For example, I used to work as a delivery driver for a big pizza chain. My salary was less than minimum wage, but with tips it always ended up being somewhere between $10-15/hr. The people who worked in the store who weren't drivers started at minimum wage. If they were promoted to assistant manager they would get a raise to a whopping $9/hr. I also worked at a retail store when I was younger where I made minimum wage. The store never have raises, and the only opportunity for advancement was to become an assistant manager of one left. In the 2.5 years I worked there none of the managers quit, so there was never a chance to advance. Even if that did happen, the pay raise would be from minimum wage to $11/hr. There isn't a whole lot of incentive to go above and beyond when that is the type of advancement prospects in low wage jobs. No one is saying that waiting tables is some highly technical job that only highly qualified people can do. Most people can do it. When it comes to tipping, it isn't about how skilled the worker is, but rather how good the service is that they provide. Take tipping away and you're still going to be paying for your server's wages, you're just adding a third party in the middle while reducing the incentive for your server to provide top quality service.

[Sage_CFC]

What does a server do besides remember orders and bring people food and drinks? Nothing, sure they can be nice and put on a smile and maybe engage in some small talk but that is no different than a cashier at the grocery store. What they do is not out of the realm of "basic service" in any given restaurant. And do you really think most pizza delivery guys deserve tips? I understand it benefited you, but you literally interact with the pizza guy for 30 seconds, there is no opportunity for you to provide above and beyond service that warrants the extra money, that should be on your employer. The time it takes for the pizza to get to me is completely dependent on the busyness of the store and traffic. As for the cashier, i think you are cutting them short. They bag, they tell you exactly where something is in a store, they'll answer questions about various products and keep you up to date on whats on sale and whats not. They'll even help you carry you bags to your car if you need it and engage in small talk just like a server. All without getting tips, most chains require you to even deny tips if they are offered to you. Why does a server or pizza guy deserve tips, but a cashier doesn't, What exactly are they doing that warrants the sometimes required extra money. Please enlighten me because I'm struggling to think of anything I've seen a server do in a restaurant that is not part of the "basic services" you referenced.

[man2010]

I'm not sure what you mean by people deserving tips. You don't have to tip your waiter if you don't want to and you can tip your cashier at the grocery store if you want to do that. In some industries tipping is used as an incentive to provide good service, like in restaurants. Maybe the server makes sure your drinks are always full, food gets to to as quickly as possible, is cooked correctly, etc. because they know that going above and beyond could result in a better tip. If the server is being paid the same amount regardless of the quality of service they provide, why should they bother making sure you're as content with the service as possible? Instead of keeping your drinks full, maybe they fill them once when you sit down and don't bother to come back. Maybe when the burger you wanted well done is only cooked medium well gets dropped off the server doesn't bother to come back a couple minutes later to make sure it was cooked right. Or, maybe the server still does all these things, but you now have to pay more for your food because the restaurant pays its staff more.

[leone_douglas]

I live in italy, where tipping is not a thing. I can confirm that food & drinks are still served on time, and there isn't the social embarrassment of not leaving a tip.

[man2010]

I would assume that eating out in Italy costs more as well since servers have to be paid more (assuming all else is equal).

[leone_douglas]

Not exactly. When you go to a restaurant, as well as the meals you *have* to pay a think called "coperto" which literally means "covered". Is a thing you pay simply because the table is "under a roof"; it's basically a tip, but much better (CMV obviously ;D) because is a fixed price, and you don't have to gave it directly to the server. EDIT:to be fair there is a proper tip but is not as common as in 'murica

[litle5o]

Completely agree