WMN: t3_3j7dlx_t1_cunbacx

[TITLE]

CMV:I want to live in Scandinavia

[Navyurf]

Hello, I'm Luke and for the longest time a small dream of mine has been to move to a Scandinavian country such as Norway, Sweden, or Denmark. From what I've heard of them they're all great countries to live in. The big thing for me is the weather and the scenery, I love cold weather and I've seen so many beautiful pictures of the forests and towns there. I'm wondering if I'm being stupid and I should just give this up because Scandinavia isn't all flowers and smiles like I think it is. _____ > *Hello, users of CMV! This is a footnote from your moderators. We'd just like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please remember to* ***[read through our rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules)***. *If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which,* ***[downvotes don't change views](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/guidelines#wiki_upvoting.2Fdownvoting)****! If you are thinking about submitting a CMV yourself, please have a look through our* ***[popular topics wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/populartopics)*** *first. Any questions or concerns? Feel free to* ***[message us](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/changemyview)***. *Happy CMVing!*

[huadpe]

Sorry Navyurf, your submission has been removed: [STA-CITE]> Submission Rule E\. "Only post if you are willing to have a conversation with those who reply to you, and are available to do so within 3 hours after posting. If you haven't replied within this time, your post will be removed." [See the wiki for more information.](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_e). [END-CITE]If you would like to appeal, please respond substantially to some of the arguments people have made, and then [message the moderators by clicking this link.](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Removed+Submission+Rule+E+Post+Appeal&message=Navyurf+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/3j7dlx/cmvi_want_to_live_in_scandinavia/\))

[sexcrazydwarf]

I can confirm the following lowdown of Sweden: [STA-CITE]>* Darkness, we get barely any sunlight during winter. And the winter is loooooong. It gets quite depressing even thought I'm born here. [END-CITE][STA-CITE]>* High taxes can be seen as a downside to some, but I prefer paying more tax than having less educated voters. [END-CITE][STA-CITE]>* People are a bit more shy than say the US, where you can talk to anyone and they will tell you their life story etc. On the flipside, I speculate that there is less gossip and trash talk behind your back and it's easier to know your real friends (but that is just me speculating). But I know a few south-european-foreign-exchange students that got too depressed due to the culture shock and never wished to come back. [END-CITE][STA-CITE]>* Similarly I've find that the few NON-scandinavians friends I have are extremely hospitable. I mean they offer me to crash at their place when visiting without me even asking. As a swede, I unfortunately would feel uncomfortable doing the same and with a few exceptions most swedes I know would feel similarly. [END-CITE][STA-CITE]>* Beer is expensive but I honestly don't care. Knowing some alcoholics, I think it's actually a good thing. [END-CITE][[Source]](https://www.reddit.com/r/offbeat/comments/38cr96/school_kitchen_manager_fired_for_giving_lunches/)   I would like to emphasis my two biggest issues: 1. The lack of sunlight, which has caused me depression on a number of occasions. 1. The disinterest and inhospitableness we show towards each other.

[mylarrito]

As a norwegian, with a lot of international friends, you will have the following troubles: It will probably be hard to become close friends with the natives. We're not the warmest people, and at your age(26+), we all are pretty set when it comes to the close friends we have. Most, if not everyone will be friendly/nice to you, but to get close, you need to do some work/find good chemistry. But even then, if you choose your hobbies wisely (intnl appeal etc), you will very easily befriend other internationals, who form a tight knit group due to our relative chilly attitude. THat said, one of my best friends is a Scot I met through climbing, so there's that. Weather(climate) is a bit tricky in Norway, it's hard to get good winters (I'm from the north) and good summers as well. Its usually one or the other. Where I grew up, we had awesome winters, but the summer would "start" in late june, and not really peak until august. In the middle of norway, you get a compromise, but you "lose" more winter then you "gain" summer. Language is a barrier, and you will struggle to learn Norwegian. Not only because its difficult (trust me), but because you have to be really insistent to get any practice (we love speaking english). WIthout learning norwegian properly, you will be at a severe disadvantage work wise, there are very few niches where they dont care if you speak Norwegian or not. Personally, I see no difference between people who speak norwegian or not, but about half my friends are intnl, so your mileage will probably vary. Other then that its a fucking amazing place with a great society and fantastic nature. The nature is usually the main driver for most foreigners in your "class", so if you enjoy those activities (skiing, climbing, mountainbiking, orienteering, etc) you will at worst find a thriving intnl environment, and at best some natives you can become close with.

[iamambience]

I'm Danish. My workplace has roughly 60% foreigners from all over the world, except Africa and the middle east - not because they won't hire them, but because we get 0 applications, probably because its a tech company and people from there don't have the qualifications. So, I know second hand from them what it's like coming here from different places in the world. Basically, the more Danish you look and act, the easier a time you will have. You will face stigmatization if you are from Eastern Europe, since they have a bad rep among a lot of Danes, due to a lot of home robberies and burglaries committed by Eastern Europeans. If you are black you stand out a lot, and will face a lot of fear from people, and in return sometimes being treated "with caution". The same probably goes, albeit to a lesser degree, if you look like you are from the middle east. If you are American you will face some prejudices that you might be arrogant and stupid. Generally, those prejudices only come from stupid people. Not speaking Danish is not a problem if you decide to live in one of the larger cities. Danes generally do not mind speaking English, but older people in the smaller cities often have a view that if you move here, it's disrespectful not to learn the language. You will pay a high tax. The more you earn, the higher a tax percentage. If you earn below 250.000 DKK a year, you pay 38% in tax. (These numbers are from memory, could be slightly different now). All schooling is free, even University. You can get money to live for while studying, around 5.000 DKK a month for up to 6 years if you don't live with your parents. All medicare is free, except dentists.

[Kaospassageraren]

I live in Sweden and I'd argue that most countries can look gorgeous depending on how you photograph them. It's good that cold isn't a problem for you - but I think it's more the shitty weather rather than snow that is the issue. Beautiful snow can be nice, but constant rain, wind and what we like to call ”slask” (basically muddy snow, often polluted) is pretty shitty.

[Navyurf]

What do you think of the general area? Norway? Denmark? I'm kind of leaning towards Denmark because it seems to have a bit of everything

[Kaospassageraren]

I really enjoy Denmark, it's a fairly diverse country with both citizes as well as cozy little town. But wait, I'm supposed to change your wiew - so... The weather in both Norway and Denmark is kind of like Sweden, sure it can be cozy when cold, but also just very gray and dark as soon as the weather turns sour (and it does. Often)

[LudicrousPlatypus]

Well, Danish is one of the hardest languages to learn, and if you speak with an accent you'll be seen as an outsider. It also doesn't have the scenery that you are hoping for (if you are talking about mountains and forests as those tend to be in Norway and Northern Sweden). The current government is cutting back on a lot of the social welfare system in an effort to save money. Denmark is probably the most conservative of the Nordic countries, with the second largest party being staunchly against immigration. I've been told that foreigners that move here have a difficult time making friends and feeling at home, and often become depressed (due to the weather, exclusion, and homesickness). Everything is quite expensive and it is very difficult to find a job here if you are not a Dane. To be honest, you've picked a very difficult task if you want to move to a different country. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it won't be a sudden move to a utopia like you seem to think. I see a lot of redditors that tend to be liberal Americans think that moving to a Nordic country will be wonderful for them, when in fact it will be extremely difficult. It's difficult to move over there for starters. I'm not saying it's all negative, but just remember that moving to a different country is a huge undertaking. If it's just the weather and scenery, maybe move to the Pacific Northwest or Alaska, as it will be a lot easier to move there, make friends (as you have the same culture and language).

[Navyurf]

Yeah I think I'm gonna try Canada and visit Scandinavia sometime to get it out of my system∆

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[_TB__]

Keep in mind that sweden doesn't have very pretty nature in comparison to norway, and denmark doesn't even have nature at all besides flat ordinary forests. I live in Norway and I have a hard time finding any place that's not stunning nature-wise. Though maybe it gets more boring the closer you get to sweden. As an example, [I took this pic on my way to work](http://i.imgur.com/8HGYBJT.jpg) last week

[millol]

Norway is just so ridiculously beautiful. I visited a couple of years ago and drove from Bergen to Trondheim. It was like driving through a postcard all the way.

[hacksoncode]

Denmark is by far the most expensive country that I visited on my recent trip to northern Europe. Actually, all the Scandanavian countries were pretty high cost of living from what I could see.

[Stevey854]

Norway makes denmark look filthy cheap. On my trip to denmark meals out and drinks (all I bought there) seemed comparable to southern english prices.

[millol]

Norway is even more expensive than Denmark. Norway is the most expensive of the Scandinavian countries.

[Lemonlaksen]

Copenhagen is definitely a top 5 city in Europe. The rest of Denmark is pretty dull and boring. No nature to speak off

[Yorubaland]

What kind of skills do you have? What area do you work in?

[Navyurf]

I'm only 17 but I'm a USMC poolee and my job is gonna be linguist. I'd like to move to Scandinavia after I get out of the military and get a degree so when I'm around 26

[draculabakula]

The standard for linguistics in the USA and America are way different. Coming out of high school the average American speaks one language poorly where as the average Scandinavian speaks 2-3 languages well and a couple more poorly.

[Genie_GM]

That really depends what your definition of "well" is. When I finished high school, I was fluent in Swedish and English, and could hold a very basic conversation in French and Spanish - just enough to order at a restaurant or greet someone properly. Some learn more, of course, but I wouldn't say the average Swede does.

[draculabakula]

Now that I think about it I know a few Swedes that speak only Swedish and almost no English. I've never met a finnish person that spoke less than three languages well. With that said, even compared to England Americans don't have a high standard for language.

[Genie_GM]

There are very few Swedes that aren't from way out in the country of my generation who aren't conversational in english, though a lot of us speak with an accent, and get a bit self-conscious when we have to speak a lot.

[draculabakula]

I'm from America and whenever I go to Europe I have to convince people that they speak well. In America we are used to speaking to people that speak English as a second language and at least here in California it is rare for people to correct others for poor pronunciation.

[forestfly1234]

You're going to be a linguist? In what language are you going to specialize in.

[Navyurf]

Most likely Korean or Arabic because of all the stuff going on

[Yorubaland]

A linguist as in a linguist in academia? A couple of things to consider, though: 1. The US is one of the only countries in the world where citizens pay taxes on personal income earned overseas if they are a resident or citizen of that country, so dual citizenship is difficult. What's more, it's hard to simply give up US citizenship too, as they still demand you pay your taxes after that for, from memory, around 5 years 2. I would imagine being a linguist in a foreign country requires a *really, really* strong grasp of the local language, far beyond what most expats would really pick up. That could take years, and that's years where you'd have to support yourself in some other way. Also, do you speak French or German? It's quite common in Scandinavia for ordinary people to speak quite a lot of different languages, and, although this is just a guess, I would imagine that people in jobs related to linguistics would be expected to be fluent in even more.

[cluelessknowitall]

[STA-CITE]>where citizens pay taxes on personal income earned overseas [END-CITE]You have to file, not necessarily pay as long as your are out of the US for 335/365 days, and do not make over ~US$92k if single, or ~US$120k if married.

[Yorubaland]

Thanks for pointing that out! I was going off a few people I know, but they were all married couples with both partners working. Do you know if you *only* pay tax on income earned over 92/120k (assuming you're a citizen and are out of the country for more than a year)?

[cluelessknowitall]

Yes, you only pay income on the amount earned over the 92 or 120k limits. It is the [Foreign Earned Income Exclusion](http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Foreign-Earned-Income-Exclusion)

[huadpe]

You pay tax on income above 92k, with a credit for any foreign tax paid. You generally have to be in the $200k+ range to actually owe tax to the US if you live in a western country with comparable taxes. If you're in a higher tax country, you may not owe tax no matter how high your income. This also gets complicated if your country of residence has a tax treaty with the US, which will add country-specific rules and such. Sometimes that can have an advantage for the taxpayer. For instance the US/Canada tax treaty counts contributions towards the Canada Pension Plan as if they were Social Security contributions and vice versa, so you don't get hosed if you work for 10 years in Canada and move back to the US. In the case of being an American in Canada, you'd want to file a US tax return to make sure those contributions were properly attributed to your Social Security credits, even if you'd owe no tax.

[draculabakula]

By the way, you should look into just getting a degree in Sweden. I believe you get a free college education there if you speak Swedish. If you are actually good at learning languages you can start learning Swedish now and in a couple years go to university there.

[huadpe]

If you want cold and forests, I'd suggest Canada instead. Since it's clear you speak English, it also has the advantage of not having to learn a new language, and because US and (English) Canadian cultures are so similar, there will be very little "outsider" problem relatively speaking. Additionally, it's probably substantially easier to move there (if you get a bachelors you can probably move temporarily under a TN visa to try it out), and there are some other perks as well such as your Canada Pension Plan payments counting towards Social Security and vice versa. If you want a more "foreign" experience than you'll get in the English speaking parts of Canada, you can also drive over to Quebec and spend some time there. Quebec is much more different from the rest of Canada than any part of the US is different from any other part.

[Navyurf]

What's Canada like compared to the U.S.? Living standards, taxes, that kind of stuff. If I get a degree in Canada will it be valid in the U.S.?

[huadpe]

Living standards are basically identical. There are rich parts and poor parts, but that's true of the US too. Taxes are pretty similar, maybe a smidge higher, but that's mostly cause they don't run giant deficits. Getting a degree in Canada is a great idea. It will probably cost less than in the US, and be totally recognized here. You can also get a visa to stay there after graduation and eventually become a Canadian citizen if you want. I went to McGill in Montreal for school and have had zero problems with using my degree in the US, even for government things which require a degree from an accredited university.

[Navyurf]

What was the process like of going over there for school do you have to fill out residence paperwork and stuff of that sort?

[huadpe]

You need to get a study permit, which isn't too hard but takes a little while (used to be easier, but they changed it). So you'd want to apply pretty soon after being admitted. If you're going to Quebec, you also need a special thing from them. Again applying as soon as practicably possible after being admitted. It was annoying, but not debilitatingly so.

[Navyurf]

Ah, okay. I think I'll try going to school in Canada and maybe just visiting Scandinavia. ∆

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[forestfly1234]

Do you want to be an outsider for all your life? Do you speak any of the languages of the places that you want to go to?

[Navyurf]

I don't know any of the languages but I know I can learn them, I think I'm good at learning languages

[ownage99988]

So uh, how many languages do you know

[Navyurf]

I know Lithuanian, English, and some French from a few classes but I don't think that counts but French wasn't that difficult

[ownage99988]

I'm not going to claim to be a language expert because all I know is a bit of Spanish but the Nordic languages are, from what I know, are *HARD.* Like, different from anything else.

[ScholarlyVirtue]

Eh, most Scandinavians speak English, check out [this map](http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/English_speakers_Europe.png), and in addition their languages are close enough to English that the basics can be learnt without too much difficulty.

[forestfly1234]

Yes they do speak English. But they only do so with outsiders and not to countrymen. The will speak English to you, but you will always be an outsider.

[Lemonlaksen]

Untrue. I have an America friend who moved to Denmark to study. Decided to stay. He is trying to learn Danish and he is ALWAYS the center of attention, despite being extremely shy, because all Danes adore people actually trying to learn so something about our small country. Most people speak English when he is part of the conversation

[ScholarlyVirtue]

I agree on the outsider bit (see my top level post).

[forestfly1234]

Scandinavian languages are nothing like English. It isn't like you're learning German or Dutch. It it one of those language where it is really hard not to speak like an outsider and since they speak English when you try to speak Danish they are just going to convert to English anyway. The OP will always be seen as the American living in Denmark.

[millol]

For most people, it's not too hard to learn the reading/writing part of Danish if they know English already. You are right that the Danish pronunciation is very difficult to learn, but besides that Danish is not much more complicated than a lot of other European languages. It's funny you say German is easier, seeing that Danish is a Germanic language and all.

[ScholarlyVirtue]

Scandinavian countries are not reputed for being accepting of outsiders, i.e. if you move there you may not be able to make many friends, even after a few years. See some discussion [here](http://welcometosweden.blogspot.com/2010/04/moving-to-sweden-making-friends.html) (and tips for getting around it) and further discussion [here](http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/mymovetosweden/2010/07/05/are-swedish-difficult-to-make-friends-with/). The impression I get is that they are good countries for the locals, but it's not as easy for outsiders to join them (unless you go there as a student, which should make things easier, or if you don't care about befriending the locals anyway, like some immigrants from poor countries).

[Elliphas]

If you are working/studying there, it will be very easy (from a central European view) to make friends through those means.

[_TB__]

Norwegian guy here, I think the reputation stems from scandinavians not interacting with strangers as much as in america, so it may be harder to get to know someone. But I think this applies to foreigners as much as norwegians moving to a city they don't know anyone in within the country.

[Lemonlaksen]

Depends where you go. Bigger cities like Copenhagen and Aarhus you will have an easy time meeting people. I was a tutor for many of the foreign students and they were overwhelmed with how many Danes found interest in them just because they were lot from Denmark. Obviously if you come from a culture that is a polar opposite to the very openminded but also very anti flamboyant Danish culture, you will have a hard time