[FL6PSUNK]
Now we 're not talking about diets here , we 're talking about eating disorders . What they are , how they can affect people , and why ? And perhaps , what we can do about them ? All of us , or perhaps , not all of us , but most of us do worry about our food , we eat too much , we eat too little , we eat the wrong thing ! I 'd like to try and define what the difference between and eating disorder and simply wanting to to to be a different shape or a different size is ? But , perhaps you could first start by answering this question , do you ever worry about what you eat ? Button one for yes , and button two for no . And in this hundred my goodness ! Eighty six people said yes , fourteen no . Those eighty six , why did you say yes when yo when I er ho how did you interpret what I said about worrying ? Yes ? Yes ?
[FL6PS001]
I was a previous anorexia sufferer
[FL6PS000]
Mm .
[FL6PS001]
I did n't have a view of what my body should be like I , I always thought I was fat regardless of what weight
[FL6PS000]
Yep .
[FL6PS001]
I was and it 's never gone away even though I 've put my weight back on .
[FL6PS000]
Yes ?
[FL6PS002]
I think there 's another point around that about erm , the image that 's portrayed by the media and and to be successful in your career you must be a slim , well made up woman erm , and thinness equates with success and an ability to get on in life .
[FL6PS003]
It 's also true that we make moral and ethical judgements about women in particular who are overweight even
[FL6PS000]
Mm .
[FL6PS003]
by a small amount . And studies have shown that women and men tend to judge a women as being less intelligent and less competent and certainly , obviously , less attractive if she is overweight .
[FL6PS000]
Mhm . Yes ?
[FL6PS004]
Er I wonder if there is in fact er a a view that women expect men to have of them that 's th the desirable woman ? And I just happen to have with me
[FL6PSUNK]
[FL6PS004]
pain painted in the turn of the century , er a Renoir
[FL6PS000]
Ah yes ! A very famous one !
[FL6PS004]
in which all the women are well padded , buxom and all enjoying food
[FL6PSUNK]
[FL6PS004]
and drink ! Now , if you compare with , with today
[FL6PS000]
Aha .
[FL6PS004]
when , when the does , when the Twiggys came in and and the , the the angular woman er , of which I am not I wonder if that was the male view or what is the wo , the view that women have of themselves ?
[FL6PS005]
I think women who are overweight have to work an awful lot harder to prove that they 're just as good
[FL6PS000]
Mhm .
[FL6PS005]
as somebody . And , generally speaking do twice as much work , put in twice as much effort and just to prove they 're as good ! Not better , or anything else , just as good so that I 'm , all these things that fat does n't matter ! And we 're constantly trying to convince ourselves that fat does n't matter !
[FL6PS000]
Right , now what has this got to do with eating disorders ? I mean , where do eating disorders come from ? Do they come from the kind of perceptions that we 're hearing or is , is it something different ? Yes ?
[FL6PS006]
I think eating disorders are very much , weight is a symptom
[FL6PS000]
Mm .
[FL6PS006]
it 's not the fact . Eating disorders tend to come from childhood , or problems , or ways people have approached food in the past and the pressure is on women to be slim to fit into these categories are er , just more pressures that make it very difficult for somebody who has an eating disorder to sort the problem all these pressures just make it more difficult . It 's , they are not actually responsible for it , I do n't think , but something that has happened that , that has caused somebody to see food in a different manner .
[FL6PS000]
Would somebody with expertise here like to define for the rest of us what what , what differentiates somebody with a , a , an eating disorder , er from someone who 's er a chronic dieter or a chronic worrier or no not a chronic dieter at all , but someone who just thinks about it a lot ?
[FL6PS007]
When it takes over your life , you know , anything that happens to you is related back to food whether it 's you know , connected or not , that is when it becomes an eating problem . Instead of you saying , oh perhaps something 's gone wrong and trying working it out , it 's all reflected back yourself with food .
[FL6PS000]
Right , are you ta , are you talking from er er personal experience or people you know ?
[FL6PS007]
I 'm a sufferer .
[FL6PS000]
A sufferer of ?
[FL6PS007]
Anorexia .
[FL6PS000]
Now , anorexia is much written and talked about , but perhaps not accurately , how would you define anorexia ?
[FL6PS007]
I would say that the criteria that 's that 's sent out at the moment is is far too strict for the lot , a lot of women and at the moment you 're expected to be skeletal , whereas th , you can very well be thirteen stone and anorexic it 's , it depends on your attitude towards food .
[FL6PS008]
We have to find criteria for anorexia
[FL6PS000]
Mhm .
[FL6PS008]
nervosa which essentially means , er loss of body weight or fifteen percent your normal preoccupation with weight , and loss of your periods for three months and a morbid fear of gaining weight . And , why , you may argue that those criteria are too strict , those are criteria that are used in a medical sense .
[FL6PS000]
Well perhaps while we 're doing it all , we 're talking about anorexia , we should talk about the er , the associated erm , disorder , bulimia , which is only recently become something that people are generally aware of . Wo wo would you like to offer er , a definition of of of bulimia as well ?
[FL6PS008]
Well bulimia nervosa is a disorder of binging . Er , these binges take places regularly and they may amount to between three to five thousand calories in one binge .
[FL6PS000]
What does that mean , three to five thousand calories ? I mean er
[FL6PS008]
A normal day you might eat two , three and a half thousand calories so within one short period of eating you would take in maybe double that . Er , associated with that are certain behaviours , typically vomiting , laxative abuse , erm , use of diuretics which are water tablets or excessive exercising . Again , there are very many over-valued ideas about weight and what that means to the individual and a pre-occupation with weight .
[FL6PSUNK]
I believe that the root cause of anorexia and people who binge and in fact , they are failed anorexics really ! There 's , there 's , th the the aim is the same , the aim is not to not to gain weight er and the control has been lost when th when it 's necessary to binge . But , I believe that the root cause of ano , is is a is a deep-seated unhappiness in the individual .
[FL6PS000]
Mhm .
[FL6PS000]
Erm , I would agree that erm , what you saying about the anorexic thing and the fact that 's it 's a sort of deep-seated unhappiness , but I think that 's far too general . You know , I think that erm , this idea of anorexics being , erm sorry , bulimics being failed anorexics is , a wee bit kind of unfair ! Erm , I think the sort of emotional erm sort of like characteristics of both eating disorders are very , very similar . But I think the reasons why bulimics need to binge , erm is completely different from what than , erm
[FL6PSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[FL6PS000]
an emotion that an anorexic could be suffering from . It 's er more to do with the feeling of , it 's like filling gaps erm
[FL6PS000]
Yep .
[FL6PS000]
erm , emotional gaps [UNCLEAR] , boredom , go you know , just a whole sort of like range of various emotions . Erm , where possibly like the , the anorexic , well I do n't know cos I 'm not speaking from an anorexic point of view , but I think the , the point we 're saying , emotions are there but they 're dealt with in a , a different way , you know they perhaps starve themselves erm , to sort of like , erm you know ge , get across these emotions , to deal with these emotions .
[FL6PS000]
Mhm . Yes ?
[FL6PS001]
And one of the differences that anorexia can become much more visible and identifiable , whereas those of us who have experienced bulimia , which I had for thirteen years , can be extremely secret and well disguised because we normally do n't change from normal body weight .
[FL6PS000]
What 's the difference between bulimia and compulsive eating ? Is there a difference .
[FL6PS001]
Well , in the definition that we heard , it tends to be associated with , with trying to rid your body of the food that you 've consumed during a binge . Compulsive eating normally does n't go to that extent .
[FL6PS000]
How did you stop bu bu bulimia , I mean it was
[FL6PS001]
In the end it was the
[FL6PS000]
thirteen years of binging I mean
[FL6PS001]
Yeah .
[FL6PS000]
wha what effect does that have on you ?
[FL6PS001]
Erm , it it , it makes it very , very difficult to imagine how you 'll recover erm , but in the end it 's a personal decision to , to try to achieve self respect , to care for yourself better , to adopt good habits of nutrition and exercise , not dieting , cos diets are the biggest con trick of all and certainly , to rid your life of people who do n't respect and accept you the way you are .
[FL6PS000]
Can you identify why you began doing it ? I mean , how old were you when you started er binging ?
[FL6PS001]
Fifteen . Yes .
[FL6PS000]
Fifteen ?
[FL6PS001]
I was certainly to do with feeling that I would have to be a little bit slimmer , that I would have to be acceptable to other people , that I would have to change my shape and at the same time , I could not resist consuming large amounts of food .
[FL6PS000]
Now , fifteen seems terribly young
[FL6PS001]
That 's right .
[FL6PS000]
for a girl to start , to start worrying about that kind of thing ! Is is that a societal pressure ? I mean is it a ah , th wi , is there any history of it in the family an and , what did your family , did you family know ?
[FL6PS001]
Families do n't generally know . And it , it was n't until many years later that I told anyone at all that 's , that 's the thing I was saying about bulimia , it 's very secret .
[FL6PS000]
And in the end , did you , I mean wha , did you get the support of of professionals or or
[FL6PS001]
Yes . Erm , but in the end th o only one had any impact and in general , see seeing a female professional was , I have to say , a lot more helpful than seeing male professionals .
[FL6PS000]
Mm . Yes ?
[FL6PS002]
Er , my experience is slightly different when erm when I had been trying to sort of recover , I did n't , I did n't feel as if I 've get any help from professionals that I approached . And in fact , I get an awful lot of support from friends erm , not family because my family are n't , were n't aware of it , erm but I mean , really it came from fre , really close friends that I could sit down and talk to and that could understand me and accept me , just like what the girl said as well .
[FL6PS000]
Mm mm . Yes ?
[FL6PS003]
I think my G P actually sent me further down hill into anorexia after I 'd lost about , about [UNCLEAR] when I was seven stone I went to see her , I 'd never seen her before and she said well you look perfectly acc , sociably acceptable to me so I went on to lose two more stone before going back to see her and was admitted to hospital as a medical emergency ! And , did continue to get professional help after that , but I think she was actually one of the factors that sent me further down , by telling me I looked well !
[FL6PS000]
What age were you then ?
[FL6PS003]
Twenty .
[FL6PS000]
Yeah . And can you identify why yo wa was , are yo are you now over it ? Are you
[FL6PS003]
Yeah I would class myself as a recovered anorexic , but as recovered as I 'll ever be ! I do n't think I 'll ever totally get over it . I 've still got a very distorted body image that I have to live with . I think I 'm fat !
[FL6PS000]
The reality of anorexia for you was what , just not eating at all ?
[FL6PS003]
Cutting down on food , I was University missing whole meals , telling people I was training , I 'm a P E teacher so sport and the perfect body was very much up front , so the more weight I lost the better I was told I looked until it became totally out of control and I was eating an apple and black coffee a day and then vomiting so that I had nothing in me . Erm my metabolism was out the window .
[FL6PS000]
Now , as a P E teacher you 're working what , boys and girls ?
[FL6PS003]
Yes .
[FL6PS000]
Do you see ah , th the pe , the boys and girls or the , the young people that you 're working with erm , having the same veering towards the same kind of thing , I mean , do you see pressures on on girls , towards achieving that perfect body in the way that you felt it yourself at one time .
[FL6PS003]
I see boys calling the girls fat and it makes my hair stand on end ! Erm it goes on continually and these poor girls are oh you 're fat ! You 've got a great big bottom ! And they 're not , they do n't have , they 're normal .
[FL6PS000]
I wonder what you think of what you 're hearing ? Yes ?
[FL6PS004]
I just wondered how much actual help professionals are ? I mean , is is there really enough help given ? I mean , we talk about eating disorders
[FL6PS000]
Yeah .
[FL6PS004]
but do they really actually dig into the the real reasons for the eating disorders or they just try and get you back onto a stable diet ?
[FL6PS000]
Yes ?
[FL6PS005]
I think what put me off in th and certainly em embedded was some of the comments as around control of our lives .
[FL6PS000]
Mhm .
[FL6PS005]
And maybe hope that we as , as people as women need to do is regain control of our lives so they , they belong to us , so it does n't matter if if boys say we 've got fat bottoms or not , yo you say my bottom 's alright an and you live with that .
[FL6PS006]
I 'd be interested to know the lady who mentioned that , er she got help from friends , what sort of help did she get from her friends ? I mean , how can you help someone with a a problem like this ? How best can you help someone with a problem like this ?
[FL6PS002]
It was really , really difficult ! Erm , she started really by , well th well there is two of them involved at the time , but they started by reading a book on the subject and really just talking to me about it certainly , because I mean they really did n't understand , you know because food to them is just food , you know it was just some meal they had to eat because they were hungry and they could n't understand why I had got this whole thing completely distorted . Erm there was a , I mean there was a lot of friction , I mean , I mean I 'm really lucky to have the strength of a friendship that I did because you know , if , I would n't have got , you know where I am , sort of without it , I think .
[FL6PS006]
Aye , so you related to that more than you would rela , related to a professional , a doctor or someone
[FL6PS002]
Erm , when I first approached
[FL6PS006]
trying to help you ?
[FL6PS002]
doctors they started putting me on anti-depressants , tranquilizers , sleeping pills erm , and you know , they were , their whole manner was just absolutely terrible ! I mean , I felt that , it made me worse as well , by going to them and I decided that I would never go back to them again , you know .
[FL6PS006]
That 's quite interesting !
[FL6PS000]
Is it a , yes there ?
[FL6PS007]
Can I just sort of say I 'm I 'm somebody working on a team er , that deals with eating disorders . I think things have changed quite dramatically in the last few years certainly , we admit very few people and we see them mostly as an outpatient . I think it actually depends where you go to to seek help and who your first erm person that you go to
[FL6PS000]
Mhm .
[FL6PS007]
I mean there is a , I do n't know if anybody saw there was a a programme on , it was actually B B C , erm , this week , it was about somebody who felt that she was very overweight and actually had her stomach stapled ! And I mean , I find that really horrendous !
[FL6PS008]
I think your G P is maybe one of the first places to go but the trouble , I think , with people with eating problems is it 's very hard to explain what the problem is .
[FL6PS000]
Mhm .
[FL6PS008]
And I think that 's what a lot of problem with condemned by the G P is is they 're not able to articulate the unhappiness that 's coming from the eating disorder , so they 're told to go away and put on a couple of pounds and because they have n't expressed that feeling the G P ca n't or is n't thinking enough to try and and poke into it a little bit more .
[FL6PS000]
So what would be better ?
[FL6PS008]
I think , one of the most important things is finding a trusting friend or a member of family so that you can then try express some of the feelings so that you 're in a better position erm , to try and explain the problem .
[FL6PSUNK]
One of the great difficulties is that many young people find it extremely difficult to admit that they have a problem . And in fact , even with as many professionals as one would wish it 's often extremely difficult to actually engage people in treatment erm , and the whole process of getting people into treatment or into health can be very difficult , both for the young person and for the therapist or helper involved .
[FL6PS000]
I do n't want to give the impression that professionals are unhelpful at all . I mean Carole said earlier , it 's a question of eventually making your mind up that you want to do something about it , but then professionals are maybe there to assist . What you 've described must be something that erm that that families of people who are suffering from eating disorders must feel very much , that there 's nothing that they can do to , to to help .
[FL6PSUNK]
Families feel very rejected by professionals erm , in my research I 've found that er , the families of younger sufferers tend to be involved in treatment but they feel very much that they 're under the microscope , that they disapprove , that they 're seen as being pathological families . With older sufferers , erm , usually families are excluded from treatment , they 're kept out , they 're told that they 're daughter erm must be seen on her own and they feel very helpless and very unloved and unsupported by by the professionals .
[FL6PS000]
Mm .
[FL6PSUNK]
Erm , in fact , I 've found that the families are no different from any other families , there 's no typical anorexic family .
[FL6PS002]
I think erm yo e you know you asked about the support and I think having identified that there was a gap in the support in
[FL6PS000]
Mhm .
[FL6PS002]
times of I mean , I actually think it 's a an awful lot of ask of a friendship , or of a family situation and also , indeed , if you I mean I think sometimes they can be very supportive but th the true understanding may not be there and erm I think that 's what led me to start up a self- help group in Edinburgh erm which is , has been erm running for the last two years now . And , I think that level of real understanding that you do get from fellow sufferers , and indeed , it 's a su , it 's a support for erm families as well who are able to come along and , and share that kind of support .
[FL6PS000]
Mhm .
[FL6PS000]
After my own experiences I wo I would n't advice someone not to go to their G P , but firstly , I would advice them to contact the Eating Disorders Association er , because they are very helpful and they 're more supportive than any G P I 've ever come across .
[FL6PS000]
Okay . Yes ?
[FL6PS001]
You mentioned er , earlier about yo , the fact that you were surprised that it was fifteen year olds , and that was quite young
[FL6PS000]
Yeah .
[FL6PS001]
and yet , in fact , that 's the time when you 're most vulnerable yo , it 's time of puberty , your
[FL6PS000]
Mhm .
[FL6PS001]
interested in fashion , your interested in the opposite sex and th the ages between fifteen and eighteen teenagers ar , tend to be faddy , if it 's not er , their body shape th th , it 's vegetari , vegetarianism .
[FL6PS002]
I think there 's a third fact that you touched on earlier that I think it 's just worth mentioning and that is that we know it 's also a genetic pre-disposition to anorexia nervosa , in other words , we know that in certain families it is a disorder that will run from one generation to another .
[FL6PS000]
Na , yes ?
[FL6PS003]
Erm , I 'd consider myself to have an eating disorder but I do n't have anorexia or bulimia . And er , I first started feeling I was overweight when I fourteen and I was , I was twelve stone and I went to the doctor and got black capsules to take which had me as high as a kite for a long time ! And then there were the the dose was reduced and then I had to come off them altogether and after twenty nine years of dieting unsuccessfully I gave up dieting and I have n't put on any weight since I gave up dieting !
[FL6PS000]
And , and what sto , why did you stop ?
[FL6PS003]
Erm , a friend started a a self-help group which I went to . And I realised , well I had realised for a long time that dieting was n't the answer for me . And erm
[FL6PS000]
Oh so , over twenty nine years you 're saying that food was controlling your life , in a way ?
[FL6PS003]
Oh yes ! Very much so !
[FL6PS000]
I mean that was , that was the dominant thing , was wha what you
[FL6PS003]
I could have told you every single item of food I had in the cupboard every , down to the last bean ! And now I do n't know . I have sweets lying on the counter , I do n't have to take them if I do n't want to . I 'm not controlled by food any more , and I do n't feel guilty any more .
[FL6PS004]
I think the lady who said earlier when you go to your G P you ca n't express yourself
[FL6PS000]
Mm .
[FL6PS004]
I went to my G P , having avoided her for fifteen years , having getting the old story every time you went well you must go on a diet ! I had been on diets and to put it in context , over twenty years I 've lost a hundred and twenty stone !
[FL6PSUNK]
[FL6PS004]
Which if you break it down is only about a pound and three quarters a week
[FL6PSUNK]
[FL6PS004]
and I think a lot of people are like that . But , when you look at it in that context it becomes very much erm , part of your life , and it takes an awful lot to break that habit and there 's no help .
[FL6PS000]
Up there .
[FL6PS005]
I think it 's very easy to fall into the trap of feeling guilty .
[FL6PS000]
Mm .
[FL6PS005]
Erm , I went on a diet last year , to one of these clubs and , within record time got to the weight I was supposed to be , calorie counting and then I had to come off and I found for weeks after feelings of terrible guilt if I ate
[FL6PS000]
Mm .
[FL6PS005]
a chocolate biscuit ! I was mentally calorie counting every time , it took me ages to get back to a sort of normal life .
[FL6PS000]
Can you identify th that the point at which worrying about food , we 've all agreed we should n't be , but there it is we do , er pitches you into eating disorder and er I know ca , is is there preventive action to be taken apart from changing society completely ? Yes ?
[FL6PS006]
I think it 's when you become inappropriately absorbed around the areas of food I think , too , because I work with teenagers
[FL6PS000]
Mm .
[FL6PS006]
that early intervention is the best way of coping with it , and certainly it demands that parents and friends and teachers , and people concerned are aware of any change which is sustained over a period because by early intervention then you 're probably coping with the problem rather than the eating disorder , because the problem is there before the eating disorder .
[FL6PS000]
Erm , can intervention , as you call it , be effective do you think ?
[FL6PS006]
Very ! If it 's early , before the pattern 's really entrenched .
[FL6PS000]
Yes ?
[FL6PS007]
I think it 's wrong to underestimate erm i i it 's particularly initially , how , how positively reinforced it can , it can be around you erm , just this the idea of losing weight and that er you know , people will be wha , for whatever reasons are , either envious or they want to know how you can do it , they want to know , and particularly if it 's linked with exercise then it 's all very good things to do and you know , the media 's telling you and a , everyone 's telling that this healthy lifestyle that actually then goes out of control through being so controlled erm e e , there 's a , well there 's a thin line between it , being a very positive experience , and you 're suddenly buying smaller jeans and erm you know , it 's just everything is is feeding , if that 's the right word , this idea that it , that that it 's tremendous to be
[FL6PS000]
Mm .
[FL6PS007]
losing weight , to realising that you ca n't do anything about it .
[FL6PS008]
I think the advice I would give any mother of an anorexic is to tell them how awful they look ! I wish I 'd been told early on what I looked like and what I was doing to my body . Nobody wanted to be cruel enough to hurt me because they thought I was so vulnerable at that time and I really wish I 'd been told that I looked disgusting !
[FL6PSUNK]
But at another level , if we could show love , respect and acceptance for each other in the magnificent diversity that that we show as women , instead of patronising and attacking each other on the basis of our body shapes , that would be a great step forward !
[FL6PS000]
Hooray ! Yes ?
[FL6PS000]
I 'd like , I 'd just say that I the the are professionals now that do know more about eating disorders and I do think there are clinics being set up . Erm , we do know quite a lot about erm , why it is that when you diet you start to think about food all the time , and why it is that certain things happen , and I think that there 's more and more information and knowledge being gathered and yes , the na , the desire to change has to come from the individual but perhaps , having clinics available where people can go when they 're ready to change or where they can get help . I think very often you do need professional help and it is n't possible to do it with family and friends because of the interaction that actually makes it worse .
[FL6PS000]
So there 's a practical suggestion and I , I like , I like Carole 's philosophical suggestion that we could start celebrating the diversity of human kind . I mean , that 's the kind of thing one often hears on this programme , is it wishful thinking or d' you think we could actually achieve it ? Oh ! Wahey !
[FL6PSUNK]
[FL6PS000]
Yes ?
[FL6PS001]
I think the media have an awful lot to answer for !
[FL6PS000]
Yeah .
[FL6PS001]
I run one of the self-help groups that one of the ladies mentioned and we looked at an outsize catalogue recently and it went up to size twenty six and in some cases up to a size thirty and the ladies who modelled the clothes were no bigger than a twelve , possibly a fourteen , but a very shapely fourteen !
[FL6PS000]
Mm . Mm .
[FL6PS001]
So the media , even when anything you do depends on your size , yo your image is all for a woman , your brain or your ability really comes way down the line ! You have to look good first before anyone listens to your other abilities !
[FL6PS000]
But looking big and good are not incompatible are they ?
[FL6PS002]
I was just gon na say , I I think we should possibly stop blaming the media or whatever actually happens and perhaps echo what the the lady earlier said , I think that it 's in our hands , we 're the women that could make this happen !
[FL6PS000]
Yes ?
[FL6PS003]
Well I
[FL6PS004]
I was just si Oh sorry !
[FL6PS003]
I 'm sorry !
[FL6PS000]
One at a time ! [UNCLEAR] !
[FL6PS004]
I was just sitting here wondering why men do n't have this image problem ? Because there are an awful lot of overweight men and I do n't see any problem with them at all !
[FL6PS000]
[FL6PS004]
They do n't seem to have any problems between each other either !
[FL6PS003]
I 'm quite concerned that my four year old daughter is after a Sindy doll and wondering whether perhaps Sindy dolls should n't be produced in erm such diverse figures as real life ?
[FL6PS000]
Well there 's an
[FL6PS003]
Are we , are we providing
[FL6PS000]
an interesting idea !
[FL6PS003]
our future generation with women with an ideological figure such as Sindy .
[FL6PS000]
A lot of ideas and certainly worth talking about it . It 's something I hope we 'll talk about again . I hope you 've learnt something and I know that I have ! Thanks very much for joining us .