[PS1V0]
Does anybody else want a biscuit ?
WMN: FUK_378
Dialogue: FUK
[PS1UV]
Yes please .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] might as well .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1V0]
Anyway can we after , they , they wanted a few predictions . What was the next thing they also want ?
[PS1UW]
They want a spread of expenditure for the contract works So what we agreed with them is that we will forthwith start sending them client reports and I 've asked them if they will report back to us whether the client reports are in the form they want them . Because we feel that the client repor Some within the management team feel that the client reports , as we are proposing to issue them are heavy . In other words there 's too much information in them . So they 've agreed to cooperate with us in er putting together a client report or , or , or , or devising client reports which have a minimum of information but the information that they require . Not the information that we think they require . An and I 'd like that team briefing as well . Cos it 's quite disappointing that we actually er agreed that we 'd start issuing client reports about two months , and as far as I 'm aware nobody started issuing them .
[PS1UU]
[UNCLEAR] Leeds North Wes
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] gon na have to wait for the erm
[PS1UU]
No . That 's done .
[PS1UT]
That 's all done ?
[PS1UU]
A a apart from Chris and Bill , I 've sat down with all the M S fours an and been through the changes to the appointment contract , and how they now erm form the basis of the er interim client report . Th the , the , the interim client report is ready I mean you could use it today . Erm if that 's what people [UNCLEAR] . Er if you like when I go through it with Chris and Bill , I 'll you know invite you in and we 'll we 'll , we 'll , we 'll [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] you say . Well so in other words you have n't done the bridge office ?
[PS1UU]
That 's right .
[PS1UT]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
Because they were n't available when
[PS1UT]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
when I did everybody else and erm I , I [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
Oh yeah . I 'd like to be in on that .
[PS1UU]
Yeah . Er but but the report , er the database has now been rationalized in accordance with the paper I 've put to you .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
The appointment contracts and variations have been changed in accordance with the paper I 've put to you . The sort of Toytown Railway example is now up and running . The interim client report which I showed as , again as an example which I provided you a copy with , is now available . So effectively you 've had that information all you 've actually got to do is to make sure that the text within the general notes of the
[PS1UT]
Mm . [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
database is relevant and then on all open projects your clerks can produce these reports for your project coordinators to sign off . The only problem is that the first time you do it for each project if it 's a ne if it 's a an old project , then we are going to have to put something in the field which summarizes the total remit for the whole of the group to date . Er a and that 's a one off exercise
[PS1UV]
I , I think we should let old projects run the , run the course frankly .
[PS1UU]
Well [UNCLEAR] you ca n't do that with bridge projects Jim . Y you can in
[PS1UV]
Well no . No .
[PS1UU]
your office but you ca n't do it
[PS1UV]
We 'll put in large ones but I mean I 've got a you know
[PS1UU]
No . No . No . No . [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
a hundred projects that will disappear in three months . [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
That 's right . A a and we just let those disappear and evaporate .
[PS1UV]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
Yes . I , I 'm not for a minute suggesting that er th that for the small projects that we do that . But most of Roger 's projects
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
w would need tha that remit .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
A and really the remit is nothing other than something like undertake erm er survey work , design , detailed drawings or the reconstruction or repairs to blah blah blah blah including pre-imposed contract work . End of story . Unless we vary and [UNCLEAR] it i i i we just need to put that in . A and I can get er Ken [ANONYMIZATION] and my clerks to ferret through the old contracts , and all the variations that we 've had to date , and come up with a suggested erm latest remit for the project coordinator to approve . If that 's what it wants . I mean er that 's a service I 'm quite happy to offer . Erm so really you tell me which jobs you 're gon na send reports out on , a and erm that you would like that particular field sorting out , and I will get Ken and Amanda and Kerry to er t to get something in there , so that when you pull it off erm you 're happy with it or we can then edit it . It then g sets the thing right for the next variation as well , cos you use that variation er use that er latest remit within the subsequent variations to the appointment contract .
[PS1UW]
I 've just looked through my notes o of the meeting . They wanted from us an assurance that we would continue to provide the level of service that we have done in the past . Because they were concerned about rumours they 'd heard of staff shortages within the C E D G.
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Perhaps we should be a bit more careful about whingeing about losing staff to Regional Railways and
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
other people . Er a and just get on and bite the bullet and do something about it .
[PS1UW]
And get on and , that 's right . And get work done .
[PS1US]
But they 're pinching them . [UNCLEAR] ridiculous it 's their department that 's
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
taking them all .
[PS1UU]
Yes . But if we do n't
[PS1UW]
But Terry they 're the client
[PS1UU]
There 's a fact of life is n't it ?
[PS1UW]
the client .
[PS1US]
Well you did n't have to , yeah . But we did n't have to , what I mean the point is that we did n't have to tell , have to tell them , they already knew . They knew that Ian [ANONYMIZATION] had taken er or was about to take some [UNCLEAR] and they knew that er
[PS1UW]
Yeah . But you 've got , you have n't got a problem with [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
that old Brian [ANONYMIZATION] 's gone .
[PS1UW]
but I , I , as I understand it you have n't got a problem with workload . In fac I , from what I understand is that you 've got a problem with shortage of workload .
[PS1US]
Yeah . Well I ca n't stop their perception of the fact that the staff that are disappearing out of the office come from the P T section .
[PS1UW]
Yeah . But [UNCLEAR] . You ca n't stop it but you can influence it . I mean if , if our , if , if we 're going around whingeing that [UNCLEAR] a
[PS1US]
But we 're not .
[PS1UW]
shortage of staff , but that was their perception Terry . Their perception was that we , we had a desperate shortage of staff
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
and we were n't gon na provide them with the level of service that [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
They got the
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
They got the feeling that we were on the ropes and I , I mean if
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
even if we are we should we should be managing that internally .
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
No . No . [UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
What I , w w what we 've done is we 've assured them that we will provide the level of service that they 've had previously and if need be
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
we will buy staff in ,
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
agency staff or whatever ,
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
to continue to provide them with that service .
[PS1UU]
Yeah .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Okay ?
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
Aye actually you do need
[PS1UW]
That 's an assurance that we 've given them .
[PS1US]
Yes . A actually that rumour though has n't come from us so the comment about whingeing was wrong .
[PS1UW]
I 'm not bothered about where it comes from .
[PS1US]
No . But it was n't but you see it 's the fact that Ian [ANONYMIZATION] 's gone . R Bob [ANONYMIZATION] 's gone . Brian [ANONYMIZATION] 's gone . Robert [ANONYMIZATION] 's gone . All within the past about eighteen months and they were all from P T fro from Regional Railways P T type jobs . Tha that 's what 's happened .
[PS1UW]
Fine .
[PS1US]
They 've picked up their own vibes .
[PS1UW]
Do n't take it negatively .
[PS1US]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
The , the , the positive message is that
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
we 've given them assurance that we will provide the level of service
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] . Good .
[PS1UW]
and we need to do it .
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
The second thing is that erm with regard to future pro projects , Regional Railways have decreed , that we will only get work through competitive tender .
[PS1UU]
No . Regional Railways North East Investment have decreed that we will only get work
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
on competitive tender .
[FUKPSUNK]
Okay .
[PS1UW]
I understood it was Regional Railways
[PS1UU]
It was those [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Headquarters who 'd decreed that we would only get work by [UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
I ca n't see
[PS1US]
It 's [UNCLEAR] it 's
[PS1UU]
I
[PS1UW]
I [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Right . Okay .
[PS1UU]
I I I 'll I 'll check that
[PS1UW]
Can you ?
[PS1UU]
with Richard [ANONYMIZATION] then and see
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
whether or not we 're gon na be in the same situation on erm
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
on maintenance jobs .
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
I see this as a positive element because here for once the client 's gon na have to sit down and produce a specification
[PS1US]
Put down [UNCLEAR] remit .
[PS1UU]
and a remit .
[PS1US]
Right . I do n't think they 've realized [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
And then we will go into bat on a fixed price and we 'll charge him that , whatever .
[PS1UW]
And if there 's a variation order we will issue a variation order [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
And we will become
[PS1UW]
variation .
[PS1UU]
we will become more professional
[PS1US]
Correct .
[PS1UU]
on those jobs .
[PS1US]
And it will cost him more money administrating .
[PS1UU]
Er that
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
does n't matter i it , it , it , it will
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
be a good exercise for us t to take advantage over this er
[PS1US]
I 've warned them [UNCLEAR] . [UNCLEAR] ?
[PS1UW]
Yeah . I I , what I would say cos we will be competing against Birmingham and Glasgow . Right ? We retain the work that we 've already got with them . Okay ? And th then we 've got a lot of work at the moment which we 'll retain .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
The future projects we 're gon na have to obtain competitively .
[PS1US]
So we 're te we 're team briefing that as well ?
[PS1UW]
Yes .
[PS1UU]
Yes .
[PS1UV]
Are we team briefing it North East , or the whole of Regional Railways ?
[PS1UU]
Let's say that we have been , we 've been
[PS1UW]
Stick with North East [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
advised by the New Works Manager of Regional Railways North East that work from him
[PS1UW]
Mm . Will be
[PS1UU]
w will be o only obtained via competitive
[PS1UW]
We 'll have to compete for [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UU]
tender .
[PS1US]
Now the relevant point about briefing this is a you 've mentioned Glasgow and Birmingham that I already knew about , that we 're tendering against . But there is was some intimation that it would go externally as well .
[PS1UU]
Right .
[PS1UW]
Right . I , I ca n't comment on that Terry that is not something
[PS1US]
Well
[PS1UW]
that Keith 's
[PS1US]
right . Okay .
[PS1UU]
But he certainly did n't suggest that .
[PS1UW]
No .
[PS1UU]
A a a and that 's gon na cause him all sorts of admin type er
[PS1UW]
Specification problems .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yes .
[PS1UU]
well specification and training I mean what 's he gon na do about getting people
[PS1US]
P P T S
[PS1UU]
on the track ?
[PS1UW]
That , that 's not my understanding
[PS1UU]
I do n't think that 's
[PS1UW]
at the moment .
[PS1UU]
No .
[PS1US]
Okay .
[PS1UW]
Now I think as a management team we need to think about what our strategy , our tactics are gon na be with regard to this . Erm because if we look at our experiences with Crossrail , if you d w what do we do ? Do we go in low ?
[PS1US]
No .
[PS1UW]
And then , and then , then try and get money on the [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
If I was tender if , if
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR] go in ?
[PS1US]
But [UNCLEAR] . No . But if , if our fee bids , that have been going in so far , are there or thereabouts and having monitored [UNCLEAR] reports for quite a while , tendencies and yes some are under and some are a bit over but in general they 're not th they 're not that far out . Then we 've got ta , we 've got ta continue to tender on that same footing .
[PS1UY]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
We ca n't buy every job .
[PS1UY]
But a w a word
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UY]
a word of er caution
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UY]
here is it 's , it 's er , er
[PS1UV]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UY]
a bad scene that it 's only gon na be on certain jobs . If I can just quote our experience er on this , erm
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UY]
we , I was able to compare our costs for design at Hounslow just er in the , just er south of Rug Rugby .
[PS1UW]
Mhm .
[PS1UY]
Birmingham quoted six thousand . We actually did the job for just under five . Er that was n't er on competition though , th that was er an Intercity job which Birmingham said they could do it for that figure .
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UY]
Where we 've been doing comparable work on er the Kings Cross Project , we wer we told by the old project team that we were very much cheaper than Birmingham . And better but that was another story . When we actually went to competitive tender , which was for a route improvement down near Leicester , they undercut us . The w we put in what we thought was a completely fair er , er quotation for what we were doing . Bearing in mind we have the more difficult travelling but they undercut us . And my suspicion is they put in a selectively low bid on that particular job . Erm we also lost out on permanent way standard drawings against the Glasgow office who were desperate for work .
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UY]
They put in th er a cheap price . They got the entire work . They ran out of money , and they 've had to be supplemented since to get the job finished .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UY]
S so they were
[PS1UW]
That 's why it 's precisely
[PS1UY]
they were
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR] . Thank you for that [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UT]
But on that Leic th th the Leicester job that you l erm
[PS1UY]
The [UNCLEAR] line ?
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
Yeah . You 'd adopted the same philosophy of pricing that . You ha because you suddenly realized you were
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR] price sensibly .
[PS1UY]
in competitive tender you did n't change your philosophy ?
[PS1US]
Yeah . I think you 've got to price sensibly .
[PS1UY]
I , I , I did not . Er , er w we costed out the
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UY]
job how we were going to do it our normal procedure .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah . Yeah . Mm .
[PS1UY]
The only thing I did n't have control of w were the rates we 're charging . I mean
[PS1UU]
Mm .
[PS1UY]
purely departmentally I
[PS1UU]
Mm .
[PS1UY]
could have t have knocked about twenty percent off my rates and still got them even . Which incidentally would have been enough to get the job .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UY]
Er
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UY]
but erm beware . It it 's a bad scene when it 's i if , if it 's universal , if they , if they 're put in [UNCLEAR] bids eventually they 'll bankrupt themselves . But when it 's selective
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UY]
and they 've got a whole market to go
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UY]
back on , erm
[FUKPSUNK]
They 're in a [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UY]
my experience is they , they , they put in artificially low bids .
[PS1UW]
Be because they 're owned by Regional Railways and Re i if they lose money Regional Railways will [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1US]
But why are n't Intercity asking Birmingham to tender against us for Intercity jobs ?
[PS1UY]
Do n't even think about it .
[PS1UW]
L let , let it
[PS1UU]
Yeah . We do n't want to work hard .
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR] th that I 've thought about very seriously but , but Terry , think about this . What proportion of their work is Intercity ? Compared with what proportion of our work is Regional Railways ?
[PS1US]
Tt I would n't know .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Anyway that looks like the only tribute problem for this financial year is n't it ? Because next financial
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UU]
year if we 're still within B R we certainly wo n't
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
be part of erm
[PS1UT]
Intercity ?
[PS1UU]
Intercity or Regional Railways .
[PS1US]
That 's right .
[PS1UU]
So Birmingham wo n't be part of Regional Railways . I mean we 'll be back to the scenario that we were fighting for three years ago .
[PS1UW]
That 's right .
[PS1UT]
Mm .
[PS1UU]
So that we can perhaps get
[FUKPSUNK]
Well perhaps [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
some method of
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UU]
cooperation within
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UU]
the other [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1US]
Aye . Yeah . I
[PS1UU]
The last thing we want to do is to start infighting on the S A Us
[FUKPSUNK]
Fighting them on the [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UU]
because
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UU]
we 'll
[FUKPSUNK]
Ee
[PS1UU]
just do what the , what the industry outside has done and spiral down into producing lower and lower quality of services
[PS1UT]
Yeah . Yeah . Hear hear .
[PS1UU]
and not
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
serving anybody .
[PS1US]
Well I 've not [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
We did make we did make this point to Keith [ANONYMIZATION] actually very very clearly ,
[PS1UX]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
that we w that we are concerned that what will happen is that everybody will start putting silly low
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
prices in and t a and one of two things will happen . Either th the quality of service will go down , or he will have all the hassle of er not knowing , not knowing what his design
[PS1US]
Sorting out what he should n't be sorting out
[PS1UW]
costs are gon na be .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
Well I just thi
[PS1UW]
Because he 'll be getting clobbered with claims all the time .
[PS1US]
Yeah . Yeah .
[PS1UW]
So they 're difficult times . I think our strategy should be that we pare our prices down , to the absolute minimum that we think we can do the work for , take a little bit more off that and hope to get some money back on variations . Because if you do n't get a job you do n't even have the chance of doing the work .
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1US]
I do n't , mm I [UNCLEAR] I 'm not too happy with that
[PS1UU]
Yeah . Well
[PS1US]
philosophy
[PS1UU]
well
[PS1UW]
Well I 'm not happy with it
[PS1UU]
th th that
[PS1UW]
but I , I just think it 's a matter of
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
I 'll , I 'll go along with that Rog er Hugh , provided that we
[PS1US]
Forty five percent of our work is taking a bit off when we do n't [UNCLEAR] money gon na make any
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
money .
[PS1UU]
Perhaps i i it 'll encourage us to look for a shorter route through to the , the , the solution .
[PS1US]
But th the problem is all the shortcuts are g gon na reduce the quality of service we give to the client . Like at the moment if there 's anything goes wrong with possessions , it really ought to be the project manager sorting it out .
[PS1UU]
Yes . Exactly .
[PS1UW]
Quite .
[PS1US]
But we do n't do that . We sort that out for him .
[PS1UW]
Well
[FUKPSUNK]
Well
[PS1UW]
perhaps we should n't
[FUKPSUNK]
it should n't
[PS1US]
Yeah . Yeah but that
[PS1UW]
perhaps , perhaps that 'll fall [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
Right .
[PS1UW]
to
[PS1US]
Right . But , but you see the point I 'm getting at ? It 's the same with Lookouts as well . If there 's a problem with Lookouts we do it and we [UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
for him we also
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1US]
look after all his safety issues . The , the problem is if it it 's alright to out-price and then reducing your service , but that soon switches the client off .
[PS1UW]
Yes it does . I 'll go along
[PS1UU]
But Terry one
[PS1US]
A and that 's just as dangerous
[PS1UU]
once he 's
[PS1US]
as overpricing it .
[PS1UU]
once he starts to [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
Is n't it ? If he starts getting , go on .
[PS1UU]
once he starts to specify in a contract document , what we are pricing for , then we 've got an immediate , okay , we 've done this for you and this is
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
we 've done this on a
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
time rate and it 's , it 's extra .
[PS1US]
But the , the vibes are bad .
[PS1UU]
But please pay us .
[PS1US]
The vibes are bad
[PS1UU]
No because
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] it would be [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
because a all consultants are gon na do that .
[PS1US]
The vibes are bad .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] . Who sorted out the problems with all the possessions and supervision for Leeds North West ?
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
Me and Roger . Not the bloody project manager .
[PS1UW]
Terry the vibes are wrong
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
all the way round .
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
Whatever we do it is
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
a risky situation .
[FUKPSUNK]
Well I
[PS1US]
Yeah . Yeah .
[PS1UW]
Let us [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
I 'm happy to pare the job down Hugh but I 'm not happy
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
to start taking money off .
[PS1UV]
No . There 's a big difference between us and consultants is n't there ? Because if you
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah . Yeah .
[PS1UV]
were outside , and you were running jobs really tight , flexitime
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UV]
would go out of the window , staff would be working what hours , whatever hours were necessary to
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
get it inside
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
the job .
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
Not only that staff
[PS1UV]
[UNCLEAR] be silly expense claims and all this
[PS1UW]
staff salaries staff salaries wou let's be fair . Outside
[PS1UV]
Go out the window .
[PS1UW]
staff salaries have gone down over the last eighteen months
[PS1UV]
Too [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
I was speaking to a lad who left my office
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
to go to a consultant . And he 's been there now about three years and they 're just surviving , and he 's says , I 'm earning roughly what I was here but I 'm working literally twice the hours . And he says , and if I do n't , I do n't have a job . That 's the reality of the situation .
[PS1UW]
Correct .
[PS1UV]
And I , I , I think we 've , we 've [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] . He has to get the job done for a price .
[PS1UV]
We 've got to be very careful we 're not tying our hands behind our backs .
[PS1US]
No . We ca n't play that game .
[PS1UV]
[UNCLEAR] . Yes we can .
[PS1UW]
B but Terry let us [UNCLEAR] look at the
[PS1UV]
Oh yes we can .
[PS1UW]
other thing . If , if we do n't
[PS1US]
We have n't decided that .
[PS1UW]
if we do n't work on the strategy that I 've been suggesting
[PS1UV]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR] putting it on the table If you do n't do that , I can guarantee that Bill [ANONYMIZATION] , Bill [ANONYMIZATION] is gon na play silly buggers . That I am certain of and Bill is gon na put in silly prices .
[PS1US]
But it wo n't do any good though will it ?
[PS1UW]
But it wo n't do us any good either cos we wo n't have any work to do .
[PS1UT]
It depends who gets in first does n't it ? Really ? [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
What do you mean ?
[FUKPSUNK]
What ?
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm ?
[PS1UW]
What do you mean by get in first ?
[FUKPSUNK]
Well in first
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
is getting the bloody job .
[PS1UT]
Well no . If we have a if we have a [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
There 's no w what are you ? Let's , let's
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] done in that way to
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UT]
start with and let him [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1US]
But you 've already said forty five percent of our business
[FUKPSUNK]
Is with
[PS1US]
is with Regional Railways if we 're
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] I know .
[PS1US]
gon na take forty five percent of our business at less than the cost to do the job , that do n't make good business sense .
[PS1UU]
No . No . No .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
What we 're saying is that , that we 're gon na have we we 're gon na put a bid in
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR] put a bid in at a certain price .
[PS1UU]
and then we 're gon na , we 're gon na work down
[PS1UW]
We 're gon na w
[PS1UU]
to that price .
[PS1UW]
Or
[PS1UX]
Or recover it .
[PS1UW]
Or recover it .
[PS1UU]
Or recover it .
[PS1UW]
By identifying gaps in their documentation in the same way as [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UT]
But then you get back to what Terry said about , [UNCLEAR] bloody York
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] you 'll really switch off him .
[PS1UT]
you know . They look for everything .
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
Right
[PS1UT]
Erm
[PS1UW]
Roger .
[PS1UT]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR] you do n't get the work .
[PS1UU]
You do n't get the work but then you
[PS1UW]
But what do you want ? [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
No . But you
[PS1UU]
you do n't need to work for anything do you ?
[PS1UW]
want the hassle of getting the money ?
[PS1US]
No .
[PS1UW]
or do you ?
[PS1US]
No . I think that [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
o o or [UNCLEAR] that I would want the hassle and not get the work .
[PS1US]
I think I think what we ought to do is we ought to point out
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
these problems at a
[PS1UT]
Oh we 've covered that .
[PS1UU]
We 've covered that .
[PS1UW]
We 've pointed that out , to Keith . It 's , I mean what you 've got ta be is , is realistic .
[PS1UU]
Keith 's
[PS1UW]
A and realize that K Keith , it 's not Keith 's decision .
[PS1UU]
It 's not in Keith 's [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR] if Keith had the , the decision to make he would continue working with us . There 's no doubt about it . It 's outside of Keith , I think it 's outside of David [ANONYMIZATION] . And I believe it 's with Richard [ANONYMIZATION]
[PS1US]
Yeah . Well
[PS1UW]
[ANONYMIZATION] .
[PS1UV]
[UNCLEAR] going to miss us a great opportunity to learn how to do it right [UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
[UNCLEAR] it 's a great opportunity . Yeah .
[PS1UW]
it is . It 's an opportunity we 're gon na have now which in two years time
[PS1UX]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
But , but do n't
[PS1UW]
we will not have
[PS1UU]
Can we just put it
[PS1UW]
because [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UV]
Absolutely .
[PS1UU]
put it in perspective though ?
[PS1US]
But do n't knock any money off . All I say is , if we 're gon na pare it down , let's pare it down before we start the job and put in the price it will cost .
[PS1UW]
Right . Can I , can I , can I , can I re
[PS1US]
Including knocking off photographs [UNCLEAR] if they say they 're gon na want photographs . Right ?
[FUKPSUNK]
Correct .
[PS1UW]
So they do n't get them .
[PS1US]
So they do n't get them .
[PS1UV]
Do n't [UNCLEAR] the cost
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] . No . You see what this , I 'll tell you what this says
[PS1UV]
the staff costs it 's the staff costs you 've got to control
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Yes .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
If the staff ca n't to
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
do it at within the cost , outside ,
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UV]
then staff simply work for nothing . It 's as simple as that . They have to work for nothing to get the job done .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UV]
That 's a reality , and I do n't see why this office should not consider the fact that they may have to get involved in that . We may very well
[PS1US]
Well [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
have to do that .
[PS1US]
but until he shows national agreements to them you 'll never get that agreed will [UNCLEAR] ?
[PS1UV]
Well some of them
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] ?
[PS1UV]
are not national agreements .
[PS1UT]
What , what erm makes you think [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] they are and you ca n't
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] Bill [ANONYMIZATION] [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
People work overtime and they get paid for it .
[PS1UT]
by what he 's done so far in [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1US]
Full stop . [UNCLEAR] more payment .
[PS1UW]
Yeah . Right . Bill Bill has
[PS1US]
Standard conditions .
[PS1UW]
Bill has worked very hard to preserve Glasgow 's position
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
in terms of , I mean Bill was the one who drafted up the
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
th the rules of er distribution of work between
[FUKPSUNK]
Mhm .
[PS1UW]
organizations . It was his idea . He got it written er if you remember the rules of the game are that all Regional Railways work will go to a Regional Railways office and they will decide if it goes out .
[PS1UT]
If it goes out . Yeah . Yeah .
[PS1UW]
Ditto for Intercity erm intentionally I 've played a very low profile game on this . And if you like ignored those because we had more to lose .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
But that 's the only reason why . If I 'd been in Bill 's position I , or if we 'd had been in Bill 's position , we 'd have done the same as well . And said , bloody hell . [UNCLEAR] Glasgow are doing all this Intercity work . If they were . We should be doing that . So erm t they 're fighting to survive , we 're fighting to survive . And , and they 're not gon na , they 're not gon na behave as er real gentlemen Roger . I can promise you . They 're gon gon na be interested in that
[PS1UT]
Oh n no . [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
work .
[PS1UT]
You can commit suicide as well if you 're daft ca n't you ?
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UT]
Erm
[PS1UU]
J just to put it in perspective
[PS1UT]
you know .
[PS1UU]
[UNCLEAR] erm Hugh said that er it does n't apply to jobs that we 've already got . And
[PS1UW]
At the moment we 've got ninety five percent of jobs that Keith [ANONYMIZATION] knows about .
[PS1UU]
a b [UNCLEAR] we 've got That 's right
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UU]
Keith [ANONYMIZATION] does n't know many jobs that we do n't
[PS1UW]
That 's [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UU]
know about a and therefore it 's only things that start to creep in this year . So th the chances are we might only be looking
[FUKPSUNK]
[PS1UU]
on investment jobs a a at a handful of projects that we might need to start competitively
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UU]
tendering them . And Jim 's point about you know gettin using this as an opportunity to er s
[FUKPSUNK]
Er spot on .
[PS1UU]
t to get it , is just right because i i in twelve months time we might have to tender for every job . And it does n't matter whether we give him bad vibes . If that 's the marketplace that we 're in then we we 've got two choices .
[PS1US]
Right . [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Either w w we start to er
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
learn the , the , the street credibility that you need to er
[PS1UW]
We have no option but t to learn it . We 've got ta
[PS1UU]
to survive o or y you , you
[PS1UW]
become streetwise and we 've got ta become streetwise
[PS1UV]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
bloody quickly .
[PS1UU]
or you move into procurement . O or something else . Or you retire .
[PS1UW]
That 's right . I , I mean
[PS1UU]
There are n't many other
[PS1UW]
I if you ca n't stand the heat , you get out the kitchen . And if that 's what we what it is then we have to do it . But er I , I do n't want get out the kitchen , I want to keep cooking boys .
[PS1US]
Y you , you , you 're , I I 'm , mm . Yeah . The problem
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
is what you 're raising a lot more issues here the undertow is unbelievable .
[PS1UU]
And , and we 're gon na finish them at Scarborough are n't we ?
[FUKPSUNK]
They ai n't gon na go away .
[PS1US]
The undertow is unbelievable
[PS1UW]
We are .
[PS1US]
like
[PS1UU]
We 're talking round it now Hugh .
[PS1US]
like you know
[PS1UU]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Yes .
[PS1US]
you can take all the graduates away . I do n't want any
[PS1UW]
No .
[PS1UT]
Mm ? Yeah . Oh yeah .
[PS1US]
I do n't
[PS1UT]
If you want if we do what I [UNCLEAR] to do
[PS1US]
I 'll tell you what
[PS1UV]
It 's the reality of the [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
It 's the reality of the world you do n't want any
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] my office .
[PS1US]
You do n't want anybody
[FUKPSUNK]
Right .
[PS1US]
who 's learning
[PS1UW]
Roger what 's your biggest problem at the moment ?
[PS1US]
you know .
[PS1UT]
Staff ?
[PS1UW]
Right .
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
Get rid of the graduates . What 's your problem tomorrow ? Then the year after ? The year after that ? The year after that ?
[PS1UT]
Not necessarily . No . Cos [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] get qualified staff who would actually be able
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1UT]
to produce
[PS1UW]
I hear what you 're saying .
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
Yeah . No . If we 're
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
gon na take serious , serious action
[FUKPSUNK]
That 's the problem
[PS1US]
and get to grips with the real world , then th er as well as what Jim said about the fact that we pay staff lieu time , and we pay them overtime , and
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1US]
and we let them , allow them to do flexitime ,
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
we 've got to look very seriou seriously about the productivity of the work that 's churned out . And many of our jobs
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
are churned out poorly and take extra time
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
because we take on t very junior staff T Os and we have a
[PS1UT]
Hear hear .
[PS1US]
commitment to sending them to college , so we lose one day a week for a start .
[PS1UU]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
Erm we have the graduates who we 're training up and they 're not very good and drop us in the mire sometimes . And they 've got a vast learning queue . We do n't specialize people who are graduates and say , you work in the works office or the bridge office . We say well pick up a bit of experience here
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
and a bit of experience
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
there .
[PS1UU]
Yes .
[PS1US]
And that costs us money .
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] [UNCLEAR] problem .
[PS1UW]
Quite right .
[PS1UU]
Yeah I mean
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
I , I was amazed when I wrote to you and suggested that er we did n't need thirteen weeks in bridge assessment perhaps
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
perhaps less than that . You came back and said you wanted them to have thirteen weeks . Thirteen weeks when we 're paying their bloody salaries and
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
they 're earning nothing for us and really
[PS1UT]
Consultant would n't bother with that .
[PS1UU]
a consultant would n't send them
[PS1US]
Certainly would n't .
[PS1UU]
on an area for
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
six months and pay their salary . He would n't send them
[PS1UW]
Yeah and to be fair
[PS1UT]
It 's this trying to have our foot in every camp and trying
[PS1UU]
We 're actually paying we 're actually having to pay overtime
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UU]
when they 're doing site supervision work on areas [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1US]
The problem is we do n't know what type of animal we are .
[PS1UW]
No .
[PS1US]
That 's the problem
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
at the moment .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
We 're a hybrid .
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] change again in April .
[PS1UW]
We are .
[PS1US]
An absolute [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UW]
To be fair if , if we , if we were on our own we , I would agree with you , we would not be doing that .
[FUKPSUNK]
No .
[PS1US]
We could n't afford to .
[PS1UW]
No . We could n't .
[PS1US]
You can undercut jobs providing staff are r a a a you know all pulling hundred and twenty five
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
percent of the time .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
Mm .
[PS1US]
But you ca n't if they 're not .
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR] we 're digressing again .
[PS1UV]
You 've got ta , you 've got ta be hardworking .
[PS1UW]
Am I , am I not right in saying
[FUKPSUNK]
That 's right .
[PS1UW]
that all new graduates [UNCLEAR] ?
[PS1V0]
[PS1UU]
No .
[FUKPSUNK]
No .
[PS1US]
You 're bloody not .
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR] [UNCLEAR] ?
[PS1UU]
All the graduates go on our books . We get a consideration from the business unit for some of the graduates that they have selected for us . So you 're gon na put other people on the th that have not been brought through
[PS1UW]
Through .
[PS1UU]
central selection , we will end up having to
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah . Yeah .
[PS1UU]
to pay their [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UT]
Or we just get credited , you 're charging
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
that , if you 've got a , an H Q graduate if you call him that on a job he 's still charged that job .
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UU]
Oh yes .
[PS1UT]
I mean it 's just that the
[PS1UU]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
S A U profits go up a bit because you get a credit from er
[PS1UU]
That 's right .
[PS1UT]
Yeah . But the job does n't benef that job does n't benefit .
[PS1US]
B but you know we do a lot of things
[PS1UU]
No that job does n't benefit so it , if , if he 's
[PS1US]
we do a lot of things [UNCLEAR] do n't get paid .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yes .
[PS1US]
Still . You keep sending me comments er things like , will you pass comments on this standard platform design ?
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Yes .
[PS1US]
Got sod all to do with me as a S A U.
[PS1UW]
Fair comment .
[PS1US]
I went yesterday , to tell everybody about access requirements and spent all day
[PS1UW]
And you get nothing for it .
[PS1US]
plus expenses and we get nothing for it .
[PS1UW]
The only thing you do get and this is what [UNCLEAR] the consultant
[PS1US]
We build up expertise . But
[PS1UW]
No . No . [UNCLEAR] . You make contacts .
[PS1US]
Oh yeah . Yeah . [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
You make contacts you impress people
[PS1US]
That 's right .
[PS1UW]
on , on , on your expertise . And that 's a market
[PS1UU]
Or not .
[PS1UW]
Or , or , or not .
[PS1US]
Or not . Yeah . [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UW]
The op no but the opportunity is there . For you
[PS1US]
It is .
[PS1UW]
to impress people .
[PS1US]
It is .
[PS1UW]
Let them know what expertise you have and there 's when they have a problem , they come , is that the one by Mr [ANONYMIZATION] ?
[PS1UT]
Yeah . It 's lovely .
[PS1UW]
It 's very good .
[PS1UT]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
And Roger ?
[PS1UT]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
You read that . What it says about training and graduate training and so on .
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[FUKPSUNK]
He does n't do it .
[PS1UW]
No . It does n't .
[PS1UT]
[PS1UW]
Th that , that message is entirely opposite from what you would [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
But you see
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
Ah !
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] . Yeah .
[PS1US]
Yeah . I know but you see
[PS1UW]
We digress .
[PS1US]
We do
[PS1UT]
Mm .
[PS1US]
digress , but I think i i it 's important that I , I 'm , I 'm , I 'm beginning to wonder now what our real stance is . Cos we 've gone through a whole sort of full circle about taking a stance that 's very aggressive in terms of saying if we i i if we tender for something we 're gon na hit the client with V Os and this that and the other . And yet in the past
[FUKPSUNK]
Not really .
[PS1US]
if I 'd had said I wan na , I wan na claim this from client you would have said come on , that 's a bad marketing exercise . Back off .
[PS1UW]
Yes .
[PS1US]
Do it for free . Now we
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
ca n't have both . You ca n't have your cake and eat it .
[PS1UW]
You ca n't . You could n't . But , but Terry what you 've got ta rec
[PS1US]
So which are we , which are we going for ?
[PS1UW]
What you 've got ta recognize , well you may go for both . What you 've got ta recognize is that the circumstances have changed .
[PS1US]
Yeah . Well I , I 'm aware of that .
[PS1UW]
We
[PS1US]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
we started off m o o o or part of this conversation , Trevor and I said , Keith [ANONYMIZATION] wants to continue working with us .
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UT]
How do we make sure of that
[PS1UW]
Right .
[PS1UT]
is what we [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Our clients ,
[PS1US]
But
[PS1UW]
the clients who deal with us , like the way we work .
[PS1US]
Yeah . Yeah .
[PS1UW]
Right ?
[PS1US]
But
[PS1UW]
That is because of the way we 've behaved over the last two years .
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
Now circumstance
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] cultivated that .
[PS1UW]
the cir that 's right .
[PS1US]
Mm . But , but let's take the , take the
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
finance bit . You said w we pare things down to a minimum price .
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
And then if they come along and change anything we hit , we hit them for the , the extras .
[PS1UW]
Not in an aggressive way .
[PS1US]
Right . But I 'm talking , I
[PS1UW]
In a professional way . [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
but when I spoke about safety and getting the money back from the safety training that they now want that they did n't want in the first place you said , no , we should do that
[PS1UW]
That 's right .
[PS1US]
in-house . Well it
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
seems to me you 've got , you , you 've got er two different approaches there completely .
[PS1UW]
Yes . I have . [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
One 's saying we do it for free and another one 's saying it is n't . A and I
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
I 'm not , not really quite sure what we 're trying to a get .
[FUKPSUNK]
Well
[PS1US]
I think we need to d we need to discuss that at Scarborough possibly .
[PS1UX]
Yeah .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Scarborough 's the place for it .
[PS1UW]
I mean our ob my objective is quite
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
straightforward and that is to stay in business .
[PS1US]
But mine 's jus
[PS1UW]
It 's about it 's about
[PS1US]
mine is n't just that . Mine 's to actually
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
make some sort of profit .
[PS1UU]
W we we 've drifted now onto
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
all the issues that we 'll
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
be talking at Scarborough in a non-structured
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
way without Jane 's help . I , I honestly believe that we should back off and , and get on
[PS1UW]
Right .
[PS1UU]
with the [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UW]
Back off . Next thing is safety training for project engineers was covered and we 've discussed that previously . Safety validation of contractors was another item th that they [UNCLEAR] give you a briefing of the meeting
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Sorry . Right . Beg your pardon . Right .
[PS1UW]
Okay ? They raised the question of safety validation of contractors erm but I do n't think there 's anything that we need to involve ourselves
[PS1UX]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
in that . We talked about
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
terms and conditions of engagement and as I said previously they are looking for us to provide them with spreads of expenditure of fees and , and Trevor 's looking into that .
[PS1UX]
Just before you go over there was one point on the safety of contractors . Regional Railways have requested that they see copies of our contractors ' performance reports . Ones we do internally .
[PS1UW]
Right .
[PS1UU]
Perhaps we should send them to the client on all
[PS1UX]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
er all clients on all jobs . If we do them .
[PS1UX]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
Perhaps the clients should vet them himself .
[PS1UW]
I do n't see how he can .
[PS1US]
Again CONDAM regulations once again here . I know I keep harking on it but the CON
[PS1UU]
What is this condom ?
[PS1US]
the CONDAM regulations actually say the client must ensure that he employs a safety conscious contractor .
[PS1UU]
A a a and he can delegate that
[PS1UX]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
responsibility t to us .
[PS1UW]
Gentlemen what are we ? What are we in business for ? We 're in business to
[PS1UU]
Provide the client
[PS1UW]
provide these people with a service .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
That 's what I see I mean
[PS1UU]
He 's doing that by employing us .
[PS1UW]
all the [UNCLEAR] . If the better service and more comprehensive service we can provide , th the better chance we have of getting repeat orders . Okay ?
[PS1US]
But the more it costs us .
[PS1UW]
And the more it costs us . Yeah .
[PS1US]
And therefore the less
[PS1UW]
And meanwhile
[PS1US]
competitive we become .
[PS1UW]
Not necessarily .
[PS1US]
W n no . But these [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
I do n't think it 's as simple as that Terry I think [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
It is n't as simple as that . You 're quite right .
[PS1UV]
you have to , you have to be able to bend and flex as , as the organization
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[FUKPSUNK]
Move on .
[PS1UV]
requires .
[PS1UW]
Liabilities we 've talked about . And that 's it . Good . But I , I thought it was a very useful meeting with er with , with Keith [ANONYMIZATION] . It flagged up certain erm items for concern , better that we know than not , not know them . Management procedures project coordinator . I 'd like , this is one I think that Jim raised . There 's a letter from Jim . I would like with your agreement Jim t to take that off the agenda and for you Dennis and I to discuss that out of this meeting
[PS1UV]
Yeah . I 've got a time in your diary for that .
[PS1UW]
Good . And then if need be we 'll raise it at the next meeting .
[PS1UV]
Right .
[PS1UW]
Okay . I think there 's value in us talking about it quietly .
[PS1UV]
Yes . Can I substitute one in there very briefly ?
[PS1UW]
Sure .
[PS1UV]
Er it is another procedure o or set of procedures . I 'm having a devil of a job with the correspondence system that the management procedures demand . Being that management procedures are supposed to be best practice ,
[PS1UW]
Mhm .
[PS1UV]
I would put it on record that B E S has never managed this correspondence system , in the way that the management procedures now dictate . If you look through it , if my adding up is correct , it requires us to keep something in the order of sixteen separate files on one project .
[PS1UU]
Bloody hell .
[PS1US]
It 's a lot .
[PS1UV]
If you look if you look through it I think you 'll get
[PS1US]
Yeah . It 's a lot .
[PS1UV]
sixteen separate files on one project
[PS1UU]
Ridiculous .
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UV]
and quite frankly , we talk about being competitive and what have you .
[PS1US]
It 's a farce .
[PS1UV]
My clerk just can not keep control of this . And the engineers are saying , this is absolutely ludicrous . For the vast majority of our schemes which are very small . Why ca n't we just have them in a loose-leaf binder with dividers in , and let the engineer decide how to hold documentation together ? Now I can tell you that Swindon are B S five seven five O certificated . They have a filing system , and the procedure for it which is about two pages is highly efficient , and the engineers think it 's the best thing since sliced bread . And I have
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
that I 've been down to see it .
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1US]
Plus everything 's in one file just divided ?
[PS1UV]
Ours
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UV]
to be honest
[PS1US]
You can never find what you want . [UNCLEAR] wrong file
[PS1UV]
I asked I asked my clerk t to get me file something and he says ,
[PS1US]
Which one ?
[PS1UV]
Which bit do you want ?
[PS1US]
I know that 's
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1US]
what I keep getting .
[PS1UV]
I said just give me the file on it .
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
Which bit ? The green folder ? The red one ? The pink one ?
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] . Yellow one .
[PS1UV]
Oh I said
[PS1US]
Blue one .
[PS1UV]
I ca n't do with all this .
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Right .
[PS1UV]
Now I raised that because I think it is a very very serious threat to our efficiency , in project engineering .
[PS1UW]
Jim y you know the philosophy . If we can improve let's hom let's home in on it and let's improve it .
[PS1UV]
Well perhaps it 's worthy of discussion with Dennis [ANONYMIZATION] when we 're talking about project
[PS1UW]
What project [UNCLEAR] at the same meeting .
[PS1UV]
coordinators .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yes .
[PS1UW]
I support that a hundred percent . Good . Thanks Jim .
[PS1UV]
Right . That was it . [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Any other business ? Could I raise two items of any other business ? One is the visit from the I the Irish Railways
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] certainly made a profit for Intercity out of it with [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
We do n't want to mention it on here . Do we ?
[PS1V0]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
Mm ?
[PS1UV]
Well Trainload Freight have n't got any facilities to fill depots
[PS1V0]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
have they ?
[PS1US]
No . They buy in [UNCLEAR] ?
[PS1UV]
So why ? So why should n't they
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Its batteries have fallen out , Nola .
[FUKPSUNK]
Its batteries .
[PS1V0]
No . Those are spare batteries .
[FUKPSUNK]
Oh right .
[PS1UW]
It 's still going . What are you talking about ?
[PS1V0]
I 've just started it again . It was finished in the middle
[PS1UW]
Oh well .
[PS1V0]
of the tape .
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Well I do n't care .
[PS1US]
[PS1V0]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
Right . That is it from me .
[PS1UU]
Are we on to any other business ?
[PS1UW]
That was my , they were my any other businesses .
[PS1UU]
Oh right .
[PS1UV]
Finance nice report you want there .
[PS1UU]
Well I thought we were going to any other business first .
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UV]
Oh . I thought we were running out of time .
[FUKPSUNK]
Well
[PS1UW]
Yeah . We are
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
Why was Monday cancelled ?
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
The dinner ?
[FUKPSUNK]
Oh .
[PS1UW]
Oh . Because David [ANONYMIZATION] was ill .
[PS1V0]
Because David [ANONYMIZATION] is ill .
[PS1UT]
Oh .
[PS1UW]
Sorry about that .
[PS1V0]
I forgot to [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Did n't you tell them ?
[PS1UT]
No . We were just told it was cancelled .
[PS1V0]
I told Amanda
[PS1UW]
Oh Miss [ANONYMIZATION] .
[PS1V0]
why .
[PS1UT]
I think [UNCLEAR] said she did n't know .
[PS1V0]
Tt .
[PS1UW]
Right .
[PS1US]
Well you know what women are like .
[PS1UW]
Now you know .
[PS1UT]
Okay .
[PS1UX]
[UNCLEAR] probably .
[PS1UU]
Right . I 've got two or three small items under any other business if
[PS1UW]
Well yes .
[PS1UU]
Right . Er delegated authorities . Got Hugh 's delegated authorities . Are you happy for the whole of your group to ?
[PS1UW]
Yes . I am indeed . Open this on trust .
[PS1US]
Erm
[PS1UU]
Open this on trust .
[FUKPSUNK]
Let it be .
[PS1US]
Is this the right ?
[PS1UW]
Can I have a copy ?
[PS1US]
I is this the right way to disseminate this information ?
[PS1UU]
Yeah . Why not .
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] within the procedure .
[PS1UT]
Ah ! [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
Well every time I send something out [UNCLEAR] writes to me on bloody DOPACS saying this is not the way to disseminate this information .
[PS1UU]
[UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] always have a
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UX]
document .
[PS1UW]
Yes . He should . [UNCLEAR] . Right .
[PS1UU]
Oh .
[PS1UW]
Good .
[PS1UU]
Anyway
[PS1UW]
We wo n't read through now [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
[UNCLEAR] I do n't think we need to go through it . I think if , if there are any
[PS1US]
No . [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
it it does n't ev I mean the , the , the one main item is th th that shocked us all is that is only Chris [ANONYMIZATION] can approve the use of consultants , in any shape or form .
[PS1US]
More fool that [UNCLEAR] that [UNCLEAR] that .
[PS1UU]
Excluding I now understand training
[PS1UW]
Technical .
[PS1UU]
consultants .
[PS1UW]
I did n't think it applied to technical consultants .
[PS1UU]
Oh yes .
[PS1UW]
Is it ?
[PS1UT]
So if we 're going to employ a consultant
[PS1UW]
Yes .
[PS1UT]
t er to do a check on a bridge
[PS1UU]
Yes . Yes . Chris [ANONYMIZATION] .
[PS1UT]
It has to go to Chris [ANONYMIZATION] ?
[PS1UU]
Yeah . Absolutely .
[PS1UT]
Even
[PS1UU]
Yeah .
[PS1UT]
even though you put that on your form A and the Board have signed it .
[PS1UU]
But Chris [ANONYMIZATION] does n't see the form A.
[PS1UT]
No . The Board do .
[FUKPSUNK]
He 's the managing director of it .
[PS1UU]
Is he ? Well l that 's what it says and , and really it should
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
only be erm a a a rubber stamping exercise . I mean I can not believe that the guy
[PS1UV]
[UNCLEAR] . Sorry .
[PS1UU]
wants to sort of maintain that sort of level on , on
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UU]
all lev all expenditure . Anyway . So that 's that one .
[PS1V0]
Anyway just summarize that would you ? Chris [ANONYMIZATION] is the only person who can approve what ?
[PS1UW]
It 's the use of consultants .
[PS1UU]
Er the use of consultants . Excluding for training purposes .
[PS1UT]
Now what if it 's Re we 're doing a job for Regional Railways ?
[FUKPSUNK]
You need to [UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
Can we say to Regional Railways you know ?
[PS1UU]
Ah ! W w we will kn with a bit of luck procurement of consultants , we will get the , we will make a recommendation to the , to the client that , that these consultants are engaged on his behalf .
[PS1UT]
Right .
[PS1UU]
And we will certify payments to these consultants when they 've done the work . But the actual letter appointing the consultant and the actual payment of the fee will be just like any other contractor . And we can do it that way . That 's the , the sensible way to do it .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
So
[PS1UU]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
it 's only really Intercity jobs that need go to Chris [ANONYMIZATION] ?
[PS1UU]
Er yes . Providing that the , providing that the client 's agent is
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
prepared to stand up
[PS1UT]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
and , and own the job .
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Yeah .
[PS1UT]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
Yes . We do n't have
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
We just treat them like a con a another contractor .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Right . Erm I , I will look through that and I will see if there 's anything within those delegated authorities that I can actually delegate downwards to your good selves .
[PS1UU]
Would you note on the front sheet ,
[PS1UW]
The date .
[PS1UU]
th th that I have stamped the date that I received it ,
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UU]
and I have put a question er a ring and a question mark
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
round the fact that I hope that the auditor is n't gon na try and isn pretend that we had that for all last year .
[PS1UW]
Mm . Cos the
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
auditor is due to come in actually very soon .
[PS1UU]
Absolutely . So I mean I I 've stamped that in , in a very positive way so that it 's er
[PS1UW]
Good . Thank you for that Trev .
[PS1UU]
you know ?
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
Right .
[PS1UW]
It is is my intention to have a look through that and see if I can delegate any of those down to your good selves . Right ?
[PS1UU]
Okay ?
[FUKPSUNK]
It 's in that stuff they
[PS1UU]
Erm
[FUKPSUNK]
tied up in those blue books .
[PS1UW]
Yes .
[PS1UT]
Can I claim my
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR] [UNCLEAR] control .
[PS1UT]
my disturbance allowance please ?
[PS1UU]
Micromail .
[PS1UW]
Micromail .
[PS1UU]
From today we are
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
w better equipped to get out onto B R's mainframe computer systems , a and the problems that we 've had in the past with regards to Micromail ha should disappear . If it 's decided , any of us or all of us o or our reports , are gon na use Micromail can you let me know ? And we will set up mailboxes for you as individuals .
[PS1UV]
What so we 're leaving it to people to decide whether they want to use it ?
[PS1UU]
No . No . No . No . No . No .
[PS1UV]
[UNCLEAR] saying ?
[PS1UU]
[UNCLEAR] . I 'm saying erm , if I give you all a mailbox number immediately and then you never actually log in to your computers to see whether or not you 've got any mail that 's arrived , then there 's absolutely no point in doing that is there ?
[PS1UV]
But if you do n't give them a mailbox , you wo n't encourage other people to send them mail
[PS1UU]
I quite agree .
[PS1UV]
thereby , thereby compelling people to use the [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UU]
But i if our clients say , oh I want to send Roger something so what 's his mailbox number ? Whacks it in , and sends it off , erm a a and Rog never logs in as himself ,
[PS1UV]
He 'll never get his mail .
[PS1UU]
he 'll never know th th th th that one of his clients has sent him something . So if [UNCLEAR] if Roger 's
[PS1UV]
[UNCLEAR] [UNCLEAR] letters on a morning , you do n't know what 's inside .
[PS1UU]
That 's right . So it 's a , it 's a , it 's a point of principle
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
are we gon na be , are we gon na use electronic mail ?
[PS1UW]
I think there should be focal points .
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
Yeah your clients [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
You see in fact
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UT]
er yeah this is the beauty of a fax you know , whether you 're there or not it gets to you .
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1UT]
And somebody deals with it if you 're not there . But Micromail and you can only access it yourself
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] I ca n't see
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
[UNCLEAR] much more flexible than that . Much more flexible than that .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
I mean the beautiful thing about Micromail is y you can get a a a a message up , you can immediately copy it to three other people , or thirty other people if you wish , erm and you can reply to it instantly without having to , you know y you just type a message in and press the button , and it 's gone . It 's replied .
[PS1UV]
It 's very very efficient . Oh I used it
[PS1UU]
Yes . It is .
[PS1UV]
for years . Very
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UV]
very efficient system .
[PS1UU]
But you 've got to actually have a wish
[FUKPSUNK]
Needs to be [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UU]
to use it you see .
[PS1UV]
The only reason most people do n't use it is cos they do n't like to get on a keyboard of a computer . That 's the one thing that stops them using it . It 's very very efficient .
[PS1UW]
Well I , I , I have no comment I mean I just do n't underst I , I do n't know enough about it to , even to be
[PS1UU]
Right . W
[PS1UW]
able to comment on how it should be operated .
[PS1UU]
Would we like a teach , would we like er
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
a teaching arranging , for this meeting ?
[PS1UV]
I think it 's absolutely
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
essential that
[FUKPSUNK]
Mhm .
[PS1UV]
the staff are advised what this
[PS1UW]
Right .
[PS1UV]
facility provides them with .
[PS1UU]
Right .
[PS1UV]
Cos it 's used nationally all our
[FUKPSUNK]
Okay .
[PS1UV]
clients are , are tapped into it , and we should be able to communicate with them at the press of a button .
[PS1UU]
Absolutely .
[PS1UW]
Right . Let let's have , let's have a [UNCLEAR] . Yes please . Yes .
[PS1UU]
At the next meeting a , a twenty minutes , yes .
[PS1UV]
Client reports and things like that you know you , I mean it 's [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Oh yes . We can send them we can s we can send any file we want via Micromail . We could we could send all
[PS1UV]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
the clients ' reports via Micromail , once the project coordinator has agreed that he 's happy with what 's on there .
[PS1UW]
Good . Right . Agreed . We 'll be briefed at the next meeting . Is n't it a brave new world ?
[PS1UU]
Sorry . Erm overtime . I 've had er an informal erm er package through from Paul [ANONYMIZATION] , er just citing two of erm our staff on the recent erm thirteen week management overtime erm
[PS1UW]
I bet I can guess the names .
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] guess one .
[PS1UU]
Have a guess .
[PS1UW]
[ANONYMIZATION] ?
[PS1UU]
Yes .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
[ANONYMIZATION] ?
[PS1UU]
Oh what a hero he is . Well mis
[PS1US]
Who ?
[PS1UU]
Alwyn [ANONYMIZATION] , Alwyn [ANONYMIZATION] has shoved
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] Eric [ANONYMIZATION] .
[PS1UU]
has shoved Mr [ANONYMIZATION] into second place . In thirteen weeks Alwyn [ANONYMIZATION] has earned seven thousand one hundred pounds worth of overtime .
[PS1UT]
Eh ? How does he do ? W what he do ?
[PS1UU]
Well I mean even Mr [UNCLEAR] in his heyday has never quite
[PS1UW]
Right . Now . Come on .
[PS1UU]
achieved that .
[PS1UW]
Yeah . So what have we got to do about it ?
[PS1UU]
Th th th well i it 's not , it 's not whether or not
[PS1UW]
Is it justified ?
[PS1UU]
[UNCLEAR] i i it got ta be justified because Roger and Terry have signed it all off .
[PS1UW]
I mean I can understand that
[PS1UU]
In f in fact
[PS1UW]
I , I know , I know what Terry 's problems have been over the past
[PS1UU]
Yeah . But the the point
[PS1UW]
ten weeks
[PS1UU]
the point that 's , that , that er Paul 's making is
[PS1UW]
but we need to get a grip on it .
[PS1UU]
he says , in the case of Ian the number of occasions where Ian has worked two hours on a Friday morning and then he 's worked Friday Saturday as overtime . And Alwyn has been paid to stay at home on Friday
[PS1UW]
Probably [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
and then he 's worked Friday Saturday . Er
[PS1UW]
Oh .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah . Yeah .
[PS1US]
Just say that again . Alwyn has what ?
[PS1UU]
He 's , he 's been paid to stay at home on a Friday
[PS1US]
Rest day . Yeah .
[PS1UU]
Rest day .
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
And then he 's worked Friday Saturday as overtime .
[PS1US]
Yeah . [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
To keep within the rules .
[PS1UW]
Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
I right . He then says , if there 's a continuous agr er commitment for weekend working , should we apply the er extra weekend duty payment rather than excess overtime ? Question mark .
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
That is a good question for Ian actually . And for our , for our R E set up . Our proposed R E set up . I mean we should n't be looking at [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UX]
[PS1UW]
now we should be looking forward at our new organization .
[PS1US]
Yes . And we are .
[PS1UU]
Yeah . And tha
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
that 's all this is
[PS1UW]
Yeah . I think that 's a very good idea .
[PS1UU]
just a , are we happy to see massive , it 's surprising once people are on E D P one weekend in three or whatever or equivalent , their overtime a a a and their you know they actually
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
decide whether or not they really need to be on that site for fourteen hours or can they do what they need to do in four ?
[PS1US]
Aye but working every weekend can i w i if , if it is every weekend is a lot of money , on E D P .
[PS1UT]
Is it ?
[PS1US]
Mhm .
[PS1UU]
Oh yes . I it 's about
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
one weekend in three's about seven percent is n't it ?
[PS1US]
Yeah . So if it 's every weekend it 'll be about twenty [UNCLEAR] twenty
[PS1UU]
Every weekend it 's about twenty percent .
[PS1US]
odd percent . It 's a lot of money .
[PS1UU]
Mind you not everybody has to work every weekend do they ?
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UT]
Ian does .
[PS1UW]
No he does n't .
[PS1UT]
[PS1UU]
H h he wo n't when he 's working for Terry .
[PS1US]
No . It is fair to s it is fa
[PS1UT]
Really ? More every day ?
[PS1US]
it is fair to say that in the case of er in the case of Alwyn , erm because of the special circumstances where we did n't actually use a clerk of works ever on that job
[PS1UW]
Yeah . Terry I , I , I know the situation .
[PS1US]
so we staffed it but wi but we , but having said that we 've gone to Adwick
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
and we 've set off , almost on the same rules . And , and my , that act those forms stayed on my desk for maybe two weeks whilst I were plotting and thinking what the hell I could do about
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1US]
changing . But of course you ca n't it 's after the event . The record
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] . But
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Y y you do n't do any overtime
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
until somebody 's signed it off and authorized it .
[PS1US]
Well it 's all , it 's all signed off and authorized .
[PS1UU]
Ah .
[PS1US]
But on Adwick we have decided , and I 've told John [ANONYMIZATION] [UNCLEAR] or he 's been informed , that because we 've got a supervisor there I do n't want him starting at six in the morning .
[PS1UW]
Good .
[PS1US]
He 'll finish at six
[PS1V0]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
at night .
[PS1UW]
Brilliant .
[PS1US]
He 's gon na work a standard day . So it does need managing you 're quite right , and I 'm , I was gobsmacked at how many hours were on [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UU]
Right .
[PS1UW]
Right .
[PS1UU]
Well
[PS1UW]
Th the decision you were putting to us though Trevor , was whether we put somebody on extra duty payment ?
[PS1UU]
That was just a , an option that Paul had suggested might
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] from York ?
[PS1UU]
avoid some of these large amounts of overtime .
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
It 's up to Terry and Rog are to decide how he 's got to safely man the job .
[PS1UW]
Well Terry , Terry 's got more , more [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
experience of , of this than anybody else around this table .
[PS1UU]
And it 'll be Terry 's responsibility in future .
[PS1UW]
So
[PS1UU]
So really that 's [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
wh what do you feel about E D P ? Is , is the question
[PS1US]
I 'd have to talk about wi [UNCLEAR] I could talk to Roger about it and see what
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
er the scenario is . As far as [UNCLEAR] one off
[PS1UU]
Terry you ca n't go rushing back [UNCLEAR] till we 've got the new
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
erm the new R E outside parties
[PS1US]
Set up
[PS1US]
leg set up . And then
[PS1UW]
Think about when we
[PS1UU]
But , but really we , I mean we should n't be running up massive bills like this
[PS1UW]
We should n't .
[PS1UU]
cos that sort of overtime i th this
[PS1US]
You 've got ta be
[PS1UU]
w if it 's on weekends , there is virtually no contribution towards the overheads at all
[PS1US]
Okay .
[PS1UT]
But if , if
[PS1UU]
from any of that
[PS1UT]
if Ian is n't
[PS1US]
What you 've also got ta
[PS1UT]
doing it , somebody else will have
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UT]
to .
[PS1US]
What , what you 've also to bear in mind is
[PS1UT]
You know erm
[PS1UU]
If , if that 's the case Roger that 's fine .
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
That 's right . Provided that it [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
If it 's genuine overtime I mean there is
[PS1UT]
Well
[PS1UU]
erm
[PS1UT]
Do n't worry , we go through Ian 's bloody time , tha that time sheet was a week being gone through , being checked .
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UU]
Yeah .
[PS1UT]
Because the DOPAC
[PS1UU]
Right .
[PS1UT]
I got a DOPACS report saying he 'd worked thirteen shifts out of fourteen . It turned out not be right er because he was
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UT]
booking it in as [UNCLEAR] book twice stage you see . And that DOPACS for some reason was er
[FUKPSUNK]
Clocking that up
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
as a work day .
[PS1UU]
Right .
[PS1US]
Mm . I think the only danger of looking at E D P [UNCLEAR] , is that if we 're doing for the guys in the office , then what do we do with the supervisors ?
[PS1UU]
Yeah . Our supervisors [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
It may be that they should be cos they are the ones that work more weekends than anybody .
[PS1UT]
Yeah . W
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
we 've just highlighted two technical
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
staff there , but what if we included supervisors ? What would the picture
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UT]
be ?
[PS1UU]
Ah yeah .
[PS1UT]
You know our work
[PS1UU]
But
[PS1UT]
is at weekends is n't it ?
[PS1UU]
[UNCLEAR] I agree .
[PS1UW]
I , I don
[PS1UU]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
I think the only action that comes out of that is
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
that Terry and [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
Needs controlling .
[PS1UW]
have a look at that and
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
keep it within [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1US]
We do control it but it is
[PS1UU]
There is n't an alternative to the supervisors . There is n't an E D P equivalent unless you start
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UU]
making supervisors
[PS1UW]
Management staff .
[PS1UU]
a different grade [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
Management staff . That 's right .
[PS1UW]
Okay . Anyway . So I 'm , I 'm gon na leave it to between [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Shall I just throw these away then or do you want them to have a second look at or , yeah , I 'll bin them . Right .
[PS1US]
Simon ?
[PS1UU]
That 's that .
[PS1UW]
I 'll leave it between Roger
[PS1UU]
Er
[PS1UW]
and Terry to sort [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UX]
[PS1UU]
Right . Th the good housekeeping i is the only other
[PS1UW]
Consultation .
[PS1UU]
thing . Consultation date has been picked for three weeks on Tuesday .
[PS1US]
And that 'll be just as powerful a tool as the Scarborough conference .
[PS1UW]
Right .
[PS1US]
Cos that 's what 's brassed people off . We 've been mentioning this good housekeeping [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Yes . Yes . Yes . Yes .
[PS1V0]
What 's the date ?
[PS1UU]
It 's , it 's the Tuesday we
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
get back from
[PS1UW]
Put it in your diary down .
[PS1UU]
erm Scarborough .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Tuesday after . Yes .
[PS1UW]
That one 's team brief in [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UU]
Twenty fifth of May .
[PS1US]
Yeah . [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
Twenty fifth .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Er the document will be with the staff reps and I will circulate yourselves , and your staff , erm by the end of the next week . Hopefully I 'll get you an early copy , not with the J Ds and everything but certainly with the left hand side , and the right hand side of the document and the final version of the document with charts
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UX]
What date was it ?
[PS1UU]
erm
[PS1UW]
Twenty fifth of May .
[PS1UU]
mid next week and then give you a day or so to look at it . And I will be sending it out by next Friday . So the staff reps will have it for at least a fortnight .
[PS1UW]
Good .
[PS1UU]
Okay ? The job descriptions have all finally been evaluated . [UNCLEAR] and as he 's quality [UNCLEAR] only run on perhaps another nine months or a year or whatever , and then revert to the same job description as John
[PS1UW]
John [ANONYMIZATION]
[PS1UU]
[ANONYMIZATION] . So perhaps
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
you would like to break that to Dennis . Before it becomes common knowledge on , on the documentation .
[PS1UV]
Who who 's representing management at this consultation ?
[PS1UW]
The management staff reps . Which are
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] ?
[PS1UV]
No . The management
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
team .
[PS1UW]
Oh . There 's er Trevor and I .
[PS1UV]
Right .
[PS1UW]
Unless you wish to
[PS1UV]
No . I just
[PS1UU]
I mean most of it
[PS1UV]
wan na know what , what involvement there was .
[PS1UU]
Yeah . M most of it is just formalizing what we 're doing and formalizing the changes in the establishment
[PS1UV]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
that was brought about by , er
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
the early retirement
[PS1UW]
Th there 'll be a personnel
[PS1US]
How is it ?
[PS1UW]
person there to take minutes ?
[PS1UU]
Oh yes .
[PS1US]
Ho ? The figures that went forward for , for Dennis ' job presumably the same as last time ?
[PS1UU]
No . Because if you remember
[PS1UV]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
last time Dennis had three subsections working for him and he 's got the equivalent of two now
[PS1US]
Oh right . [UNCLEAR] yeah . Right . [UNCLEAR] . Okay .
[PS1UU]
and the quality team was an M S two and an M S one , and it 's now only an
[PS1US]
And it 's now , yeah .
[PS1UU]
M S two .
[PS1US]
Fine .
[PS1UU]
So there 's been shrinking .
[PS1UW]
Terry I 've
[PS1US]
Good .
[PS1UW]
I 've already primed , I 've already told Dennis quietly .
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
Right . Okay .
[PS1US]
And there 's no problem [UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
There 's no problems as far as he 's concerned .
[PS1UU]
I mean i it 'll be a , if Dennis was serious about wanting to go , he 'll be er he 'll be able to say , look , I 'm redundant .
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
I 'm displaced .
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
Buggers us up promotion-wise in future again but
[PS1UU]
Well i it was never on that
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
he was gon na keep the quality leg after he 'd gone .
[PS1UW]
No . Well once he 'd lost that he would have lost the
[PS1US]
No . No . Yeah .
[PS1UW]
grade anyhow .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Like the other people lost the grade .
[PS1UU]
So er that really means that i
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
a all being well we 've sorted that .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
What I would like to try and get personnel 's agreement to , if a if at all possible , is that we do n't do this nonsense of having to close list our staff to jobs that we know we 're gon na put them into . I would like to try and sort that out on the day apart from the
[PS1UW]
That 's sloppy [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UU]
I think there 's only one post , and it 's in Jim 's office , where there are too many M S twos existing for the future M S two posts that , that , that we 've got on the document . Apart from that scenario where those people will have to apply for their jobs , and the T Os across the board
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UU]
where Roger 's getting rid of more T O posts than we 've actually got sitting
[PS1UW]
Right .
[PS1UU]
tenants in them . I think that the rest of the situation should be more or less a straight across thing , and I 'm gon na see if we can get Paul [ANONYMIZATION] [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Just slot , slot them in
[PS1UT]
Well
[PS1UW]
a and not have to [UNCLEAR] posts .
[PS1UU]
Well we can identify the P M T posts anyway so there 'll be
[PS1UW]
Right .
[PS1UU]
no problem there . It 's the management staff
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
posts . We would want to put the people across into what er are actually their existing jobs .
[PS1UW]
I would go along with that .
[PS1UT]
Er that is not as simple as you say though
[PS1US]
No .
[PS1UT]
Trevor [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
No .
[PS1UT]
I have Colin [ANONYMIZATION] as an M S three .
[PS1UU]
Of course y but , but he is an M S three
[PS1US]
So what ?
[PS1UU]
and under the close listing jobs , Roger
[PS1UW]
He 'll be at M S three .
[PS1UU]
he will be at an M S three .
[PS1US]
M S three .
[PS1UW]
And he will be [UNCLEAR] post .
[PS1UU]
He will be close listed into an M S three post .
[PS1UT]
But we said , ah . [UNCLEAR] but there is not , he can not occupy an M S three design post with
[PS1UU]
Roger
[PS1UT]
the new
[PS1US]
He 's doing it now .
[PS1UU]
he 's carrying he is in the post at the moment
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] do with outside parties .
[PS1UU]
No . No . He is n't .
[PS1UW]
He is n't .
[PS1UU]
He is doing a job in your office as an assistant section engineer at the moment .
[PS1UT]
Dealing with outside party work .
[PS1UU]
No . No . No . No . He 's [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
Well that 's what he 's doing cos that 's all he can do .
[PS1UU]
His job description , his job description [UNCLEAR] . Right .
[PS1UW]
His job description is the same as everybody else 's .
[PS1UU]
If at the [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
Well let's not play on words .
[PS1UU]
Well okay then .
[FUKPSUNK]
No . No .
[PS1UU]
If at the end of the day once we have gone through the goo the good housekeena keeping exercise and he has been put into an M S three post that you think he is not capable of , then you 've got two options . You have got to train [UNCLEAR] that person which you could have been doing for years and
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR] for years .
[PS1UU]
have n't . You [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
Now come off it . Come off
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] I think Roger 's [UNCLEAR] Roger has , we might not like it but Roger may well have a point cos he does n't ha
[PS1UU]
Yeah I , I
[PS1US]
he does n't have to put Colin [ANONYMIZATION] in an M S three just because you 've got a vacancy .
[PS1UU]
Hang on . I 'm c look let me just give him the two options .
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
The two options are , one you train somebody so
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
that you give them additional training so they
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
can do the job . Or two you take the
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
erm the managerial action which is available for you , t to take him out of there and put him into a different post , because he 's not capable of doing [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UT]
Or the yes . A managerial action could be that he transfers with the outside party services .
[PS1US]
You ca n't cos [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UU]
You ca n't because they have n't got another job .
[PS1US]
There is n't a job in there .
[PS1UW]
There is no three in there .
[PS1US]
There is no three in there .
[PS1UU]
There is no three in there .
[PS1UT]
No but there you have , you 'll have three vacancies wo n't you ?
[PS1US]
No .
[PS1UT]
You 've , you 've no M S three
[PS1UW]
As what ?
[PS1UT]
vacancies ?
[PS1UW]
I mean what you 're basically saying
[PS1US]
As what ?
[PS1UW]
is that I do n't want him so
[PS1UU]
You 've got two M S sh
[PS1UW]
so I 'll hand over to , to [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UT]
No . I 'm saying he might be more
[PS1US]
With the R E the R E
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] doing that job
[PS1US]
set up
[PS1UT]
Mm ?
[PS1US]
The R E set up .
[PS1UW]
It is a problem
[PS1UU]
You 're gon na have to put Ian [ANONYMIZATION]
[PS1UT]
It 's a big problem .
[PS1UU]
you 're gon na have to put
[PS1UW]
but I
[PS1UU]
Ian [ANONYMIZATION] in one of those two jobs . One of those three jobs are n't you ?
[PS1US]
The R E set up .
[PS1UU]
The R E set up . The R E's outside
[PS1UT]
Am I ?
[PS1UU]
party job .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
And then you 're gon na be faced with , with two people at the moment , erm that do the running around on the outside party [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
Nick [ANONYMIZATION] and Steve [ANONYMIZATION] .
[PS1UU]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
I , I think what we
[PS1US]
But I 'm not
[PS1UW]
I think the process we should go through is a [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1US]
You wan na be careful there because I 'm not tak I 'm not necessarily taking those .
[PS1UW]
Mm . The process we will go through
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Well that
[PS1UW]
we will slot , we 'll
[PS1UU]
Yeah . That will
[PS1UW]
slot people in and we 've , we I I mean i if we look at the Colin [ANONYMIZATION] situation . Colin is , is currently occupying an M S three job within your office . And , and within the rules of the game we can do nothing other than
[PS1UU]
Put him into that
[PS1UW]
put him into that post . Now acknowledging what you say Rog , if you consider he ca n't do that work , then as the next phase what we 're gon na have to do , you and I , is to see what action we can take . Me with an overview of the organization , to see if there is anywhere else we can put him , and off , off the top I ca n't think of anywhere . Erm but then we , we w we need to start thinking about how we get the best out of Colin . Cos that 's what it 's all about is n't it ?
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] well we 've been trying to think how we could get the best out of Colin for the past four bloody years . Remember Colin was put into that job er because he was displaced , he did n't want to go into the job . Erm we know where there is a very good place
[PS1UU]
Absolutely .
[PS1UT]
that Colin could go and do a good job
[FUKPSUNK]
Send him there .
[PS1UT]
and he would maybe be a damn sight happier than he will be if he stays behind .
[PS1UU]
Yeah .
[PS1UT]
And it 's still an Intercity
[PS1UU]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Have done .
[PS1UT]
post .
[PS1UU]
What did he say ?
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] spoken to him .
[PS1UU]
What did he say ?
[PS1UW]
Tt . He said they 'd been through the a the er interview process and they 've chosen who they want .
[PS1UT]
But it 's still at your , if it was going to another sector I could understand that attitude , but when it is being , it 's still within Intercity , I just can not understand that that is the attitude we take .
[PS1UW]
Terry er sorry Roger if , if I were interviewing for posts , I would appoint , and you know full well I would , the people that I thought were best for that job . And I would make that judgement and I would appoint it . That is precisely what Kim and Kevin have done . I have tried to er persuade him that , that Colin would be good for that job . End of story as I see it .
[PS1UU]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
And he is now our responsibility , and we 're gon na have to er determine what the right management action is . He 's a chartered engineer . I mean he 's no nugget he 's er
[PS1UU]
And he will be carrying out the dut
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
he will be carrying out the duties
[PS1UW]
Well [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
not of a subsection leader Roger but
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
[UNCLEAR] of a project , senior project engineer .
[PS1UT]
Senior project engineer .
[PS1UU]
Yeah .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Well y
[PS1UT]
Which means he might have to do some design .
[PS1UW]
Yes .
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
Yes .
[PS1UW]
And wh why not ? We send him on a B S five four double O course .
[PS1UU]
That 's right . We can train him and [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
And I , I personally believe that , I personally believe that Colin [ANONYMIZATION] has got ability if we exploit it .
[PS1UT]
It 's very easy to say that
[PS1UW]
Yes . It is .
[PS1UT]
and we we have tried and tried but you can not light the spark .
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] . Can I suggest we er
[PS1UU]
Perhaps he might he better off in the works office ?
[PS1UT]
Yeah well he comes to work
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
from nine till five
[PS1UV]
I suggest you turn the tape recorder off .
[PS1UT]
and that 's it .
[PS1US]
Ca can we move on ?
[PS1UW]
Terry
[PS1US]
Because w we 're actually stuck on one person [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Yeah . Yeah . We we are . We 're getting
[PS1US]
The principle I would like to put forward is that if we are gon na place
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] is that Trevor on behalf of you comes round and talks to each of us to make sure that what yo what you 're gon na propose
[PS1UU]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
fits with our feelings .
[PS1UU]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Splendid idea .
[PS1UU]
Yeah . I mean we we 're gon na have to , we 're gon na have to be very careful
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
with the M S twos anyway , because of these two twos down in the
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UU]
works office . Perhaps [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
Well yeah . No good [UNCLEAR] thinking he 's sending
[PS1UU]
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] of in fact [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
No . I I 'm sure that the twos we 're gon na have to close list
[PS1US]
I think you will . Anyway
[PS1UU]
erm
[PS1US]
talk it through with us .
[PS1UX]
Okay .
[PS1UW]
We , we can make an assumption that we 're gon na get the consultation through as , as we 've
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
as we 've intended .
[PS1US]
and the others . Yeah .
[PS1UW]
If there are any changes they will be very marginal . I mean there will
[PS1UU]
Right .
[PS1UW]
be on grades for a start because [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
our jobs evaluated .
[PS1US]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
And I 'm not sure where any changes would be .
[PS1UU]
Well you 've got some flexibility on the
[PS1US]
Well let's go through the philosophy .
[PS1UU]
P and T grades but that 's all .
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
You can , you can , you can shadow list or whatever it 's called
[PS1UW]
But that 's , that 's about all . So we can make an assumption and I think we should do that before twenty fifth of May .
[PS1UU]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
We should go through a process o of this group of slotting , in accordance with the rules , and get that
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
slotting done so we have a template there that we can deal with on the twenty fifth .
[PS1US]
Right .
[PS1UU]
When we 've got the left and right hand side of the document which Joan 's well on with at the moment , we can pencil in very lightly the jobs
[PS1UW]
Pencil [UNCLEAR] yeah
[PS1UU]
that we see going straight across
[PS1UW]
We 'll we 'll agree them with you and then we 'll , we 'll
[PS1UU]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
use that as a template .
[PS1US]
Right .
[PS1UU]
I 'll come round each of you and , and do that .
[PS1UW]
Okay . Good .
[PS1UU]
Cos yours is gon na be complicated [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UW]
Right . Any , any more any other businesses ? Because I would like [UNCLEAR] deal with the erm
[PS1US]
Erm I 've I have a question . Is , is i I thought we were
[PS1UW]
Okay .
[PS1US]
doing erm for some unknown reason
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
rule reviewing .
[FUKPSUNK]
Oh . [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
That 's this afternoon .
[PS1US]
Not on the agenda .
[PS1UU]
Not on the
[PS1V0]
Well I had to do that agenda when Hugh was n't here , so [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
I 'll go and get Andrew and I 'll just check with Steve [ANONYMIZATION] that erm
[PS1UW]
He 's gon na rule review us .
[PS1UU]
he is rule reviewing
[PS1UW]
Good .
[PS1UU]
us this afternoon . But I 've already been done so
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Any other business ? Good . Thanks [UNCLEAR] . That was quite a useful move . The main thing is that th the financial commentary . What I would like to do with the financi financial commentary , is because it is , is an historic document , I would like to pull out a few plums which we can team brief . And
[PS1UX]
What about us finding out what the [UNCLEAR] is like ?
[PS1UW]
It is .
[PS1UX]
We 're only doing it for [UNCLEAR] and [UNCLEAR] [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR] may well be . We 'll put half a mind on it .
[PS1US]
I , I 'm yeah . I have n't seen it .
[PS1UW]
Alright ?
[FUKPSUNK]
Have n't you seen it ?
[PS1US]
Until just now . [UNCLEAR] passed down
[FUKPSUNK]
Yes .
[PS1US]
this morning ?
[PS1UV]
Er bu late last night .
[PS1UW]
I mean
[PS1US]
I think we sho we could have done with some time to look at it really .
[PS1UW]
unless Andrew 's dropped some enormous goolies , I ca n't see that the plums that I 've picked out should be
[PS1US]
We
[PS1UW]
all that significant .
[PS1US]
I ca sorry . I can see something in here you 've got
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
that disappoints me having spoken to Andrew about it . Er and that 's that he 's pulled out here the income generated by various departments . And for once thank goodness he 's split works and bridges by taking the
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
supervision out which is what I asked him to do . But what I did say , and he said he could do it , was to divide up , to compare us , that he could divide up the profitability and I 'm not sure that , you know i in terms of
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
how many staff did Rog have ? How many staff did I have ? And what does that equate to ? In terms of income ? Cos that 's the relevant part is how much each individual is , is erm
[PS1UW]
It 's got a profitability on , on page three .
[PS1US]
Page three . Let me have a look . As I say I 've only just started
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1US]
flicking through it . Erm there 's the profit and loss . Return [UNCLEAR] I do n't quite unders can somebody tell me what each indiv I mean basically I would have expected to see the money earned divided by the , the number of staff telling me how much
[PS1UV]
Right . You 're talking about contribution to the fee earning then ? Rather than
[PS1US]
Yes .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
That 's been dropped .
[PS1US]
So what did ? What 's , what 's number three of profitability mean ?
[PS1UW]
Number three . You 've got a return on expenditure for your function of eight point nine percent . In other words tha that is
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
your profit . Eight point nine percent and that 's er that 's [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
No . That 's that 's my contribution towards the total of the group is n't it ?
[PS1UW]
No . It 's a return on expenditure . If your
[PS1US]
If I 've read it right .
[PS1UW]
if your overall costs , which are on the sheet before that Terry
[PS1US]
Right . I 'm with you . Yeah .
[PS1UW]
are one million and ninety nine pounds , it costs to run your organization .
[PS1US]
Divided by the staff . Ah . So that is it then .
[PS1UW]
Alright ?
[PS1US]
That 's it . Good .
[PS1UW]
So he 's got it there and then what he 's done then , is he 's deducted the non fee earning element of the organization . Pro-rata 'd that through the
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
functions and come up with a revised profit and loss . Okay ?
[PS1US]
I do n't see how the supervisor can make a loss . Do you ?
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1UV]
Well it 's , it 's , it 's Trevor 's organization is n't it that 's being
[PS1UT]
I 'm non [UNCLEAR] long long time you know .
[PS1UV]
charged off against each other 's [UNCLEAR] .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
But all their time 's chargeable .
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] that time .
[PS1US]
All their time 's chargeable for [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
No . No . No . They they 'll have to take a share
[FUKPSUNK]
Well do n't ask me .
[PS1UV]
of the overheads [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
Yeah . They charge to overheads if they were n't doing a job .
[PS1UW]
But they do n't , co could be Roger . Yeah .
[PS1UT]
But , or you have the tendency
[PS1UW]
It could be
[PS1UT]
to put two people on a job when
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
one would have done .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Well yeah . It co
[PS1UT]
You know .
[PS1UW]
er it could be that either we 're not recovering costs on , on that basis or
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] costs on the bill like
[PS1UW]
perhaps
[PS1UV]
Ah .
[PS1UW]
that the er [UNCLEAR] charge that we 're charging the client is n't high enough
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] do n't we ?
[PS1UW]
Well it is n't .
[PS1US]
Mm . [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
hours [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
To cover the overheads in that er appointment .
[PS1US]
Yeah . That 's the problem .
[PS1UW]
I mean that 's , that 's the way I read it .
[PS1UW]
So w we 're not charging out for them at a high enough rate . Marginally [UNCLEAR] .
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1US]
For who sorry ?
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR] supervisors .
[PS1US]
The problem with work supervisors is I think we hinted before , if you think about it , is the fact that our plans and what have you all go forward assuming it 's so many hours . It does n't take in the fact that you 're actually paying them double time for overtime .
[PS1UW]
Right .
[PS1US]
And , and one and a half times .
[PS1UT]
Yeah . And they 're
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UT]
working overtime [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
So the more overtime you work as I 've said before the less efficient we become . In terms of profitability .
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
What 's happened here ?
[PS1UW]
Right .
[FUKPSUNK]
There was a co
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
Cockup ?
[FUKPSUNK]
cockup with the one of the formulas . [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
Thank you .
[PS1UY]
Tt ruins . Ruins .
[PS1US]
So which bit 's the [UNCLEAR] ?
[PS1UU]
So whi which are these replacing Andrew ?
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
Er they 're page three
[PS1US]
Page four [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Page three .
[PS1US]
a second .
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1US]
Rip that off there
[PS1UW]
Which part of page three
[PS1UU]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
has been changed then ?
[PS1UU]
All of page
[PS1US]
All of it . So w so completely new . Oh . Hang on .
[PS1UW]
No it is n't . It 's [UNCLEAR] .
[FUKPSUNK]
Oh God .
[PS1UU]
Ah .
[PS1UY]
[UNCLEAR] different ? What 's different ?
[FUKPSUNK]
Or shall I just put on the ?
[PS1UW]
There 's only the bottom
[FUKPSUNK]
It 's only [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
There 's only the bottom .
[FUKPSUNK]
There 's only the bottom .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
The table
[FUKPSUNK]
table
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
table at the bottom .
[FUKPSUNK]
It 's just the table .
[PS1UY]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
So
[PS1UW]
So it 's that , it 's , it 's only that table there ? And as far as I 'm concerned it does n't make any significant difference
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] gone down .
[PS1UW]
to my analysis . So is that there on page three ?
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] . Option erm sorry , point three .
[FUKPSUNK]
On page three yeah .
[PS1UW]
Right . It 's just those numbers then is n't it ?
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
It 's just those numbers . Yeah .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
So those two pages
[PS1UW]
Again .
[FUKPSUNK]
Erm
[PS1UU]
want replacing .
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
I 'm happy about that .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
And then in the
[PS1US]
I 'm not [UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
[PS1UW]
Here 's an extra sheet .
[FUKPSUNK]
These are extra sheets .
[PS1UT]
Right .
[PS1UW]
Good .
[PS1UT]
That one there .
[PS1UU]
Yeah . I know .
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] be [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
I ca n't be dealing with all
[PS1UW]
Oh good .
[PS1US]
these bloody changes .
[PS1UW]
Pro capita fee earning bids .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yes .
[PS1UW]
Al [ANONYMIZATION] 's staff . Hugh [ANONYMIZATION] 's staff .
[PS1UW]
Right . So there 's an extra sheet three B.
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
First of all can I say , it 's a good report ,
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
and thank you Andrew .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Well done . Erm the next question I ask is , how do we make staff aware of the content ? Well we discussed that early on , we 're gon na actually issue this as part of our annual report . And it 's cos I think it 's important that
[PS1UU]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
staff do understand er I , I mean I wonder how many of our staff understand how much detail we look at and have available ?
[PS1UY]
Probably very few .
[PS1UW]
Yeah . And I think it 's important that they , they should know the , the amount of information that is available , and how I think , how well we do monitor er our financial performance . Cos i it is important .
[PS1UV]
Yeah . It 's also
[PS1UW]
Good .
[PS1UV]
important our staff are educated in their effect on this .
[PS1UU]
Yes .
[PS1UV]
Cos I do n't think , well I 've got to speak for B E S. I have a number of staff who just do not see , that all of this is generated by them .
[PS1UU]
Yes cos it all comes out of DOPACS without DOPACS [UNCLEAR] you have n't got any of this .
[PS1UV]
Every single thing on here comes out of that
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UV]
report they make on the
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1UV]
income side .
[FUKPSUNK]
So if they balls it up we get false
[PS1UU]
Yeah .
[FUKPSUNK]
figures [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UU]
If the turn around documents are wrong
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
But how do we get that across ?
[PS1UV]
Well I think that has to be said . I think that ought to be said to staff .
[PS1UW]
Right . I mean I 'm gon na suggest
[PS1UT]
When when this is [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UW]
that t th that that w we team brief certain aspects of this today .
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
Erm
[PS1UU]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
and I 'm gon na suggest that you take that along with you and you say , look , this is what you get , er whenever we want it . This is the end of year report . Erm the first thing I 'm , I I would like t t to draw out is that at the end of the year we made a profit of a hundred sixty thousand pounds .
[FUKPSUNK]
A hundred and ninety .
[PS1UT]
Where does it say that ?
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR] ?
[FUKPSUNK]
A hundred and ninety .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
A hundred and ninety thousand [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
Where does it say that ?
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] ?
[PS1UW]
That is , it was in er
[FUKPSUNK]
It 's at the bottom of page [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1US]
Bottom of page three it is .
[PS1UU]
Bottom of page t new page three ?
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
A hundred and ninety thousand pounds . Thank you for that er Andrew . Okay ? So well done lads . That 's pretty good in a , in a year that has been fairly tough . That 's the good news . The next point I would raise , and this is er by looking at item three on page one , is the income split by business and profit
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
centre
[PS1UT]
The forty five for
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
Regional Railways
[PS1UW]
which , yeah .
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
And I would like to draw out of there the fact that eighteen percent of our work is for Intercity , forty five percent is for Regional Railways
[PS1US]
Sorry Jim .
[PS1UW]
and sixteen percent for Network South East . If you add those two up they come to about sixty one percent nearly sixty two percent . Those two areas of work , two thirds of our work , I see as being areas of risk . Because Croydon are anxious to maintain , or to take all the work , for Network
[PS1UV]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
South East . Glasgow and Birmingham are anxious to take all the work for Regional Railways . The way that we continue , our clients , the ones that we contract with , are anxious to continue working with us . That is because we 've given them good service over the past three years . And it 's important for our staff to be aware of that , and to realize that we have got ta continue to give , those two clients I believe in particular , the best possible service we can provide .
[PS1UV]
We 're going down the Swanee if we do n't .
[PS1UU]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
So that , that was message number two .
[FUKPSUNK]
We did get some rates from Glasgow did n't we ?
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1US]
Yeah
[PS1UU]
Yes .
[PS1US]
we got , theirs were higher than ours .
[PS1UU]
Theirs were higher than ours .
[PS1UW]
Yeah ?
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[FUKPSUNK]
[PS1UW]
Good . Erm in item four I did n't understand item four .
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[FUKPSUNK]
This is money that we 've lost .
[PS1US]
These are the balls-ups .
[PS1UW]
Right .
[PS1UU]
These are the jobs that we 've transferred money or given money back .
[PS1UW]
Okay .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
I , I do n't intend to spend any time on that at all we went through it last time
[PS1UU]
No it 's just , it 's just an opportunity [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
Oh . Green Bottom being debited to bridge ? Come on . It 's joint .
[FUKPSUNK]
Fair enough .
[PS1UW]
Roger what does it matter ?
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] does it matter ?
[PS1UW]
As a group I mean the other thing that surprised me a bit , I , I spoke to Ken [ANONYMIZATION] yesterday and said , how did you receive ? How was the fifty thousand pound credit
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
received for Green Bottom ? And he said , oh yes , he said , Roger told me about that , he said , I did n't even know we were getting that . [UNCLEAR] surprised me .
[PS1UU]
He 's a project coordinator .
[PS1UW]
Right . Fine .
[PS1UU]
I mean Ro R Roger advised the client 's agent in the normal way I mean
[FUKPSUNK]
If somebody 's accepted the , the fifty thousand that we passed
[PS1UW]
Good .
[FUKPSUNK]
back
[PS1UW]
It wou anyway thank you for that .
[PS1UX]
[UNCLEAR] I would .
[PS1UW]
It was just that i it was almost in passing he said , well yeah Roger told me about that . And it was n't just a sort of formal thing or anything , that was the impression I got . I may be wrong .
[PS1UT]
Mm . I told him about it . Yes .
[PS1UW]
Formally ?
[PS1UT]
But er , mm ?
[PS1UW]
Formally ?
[PS1UT]
Only in conversa only verbally , I have n't written to him and told him .
[FUKPSUNK]
Oh .
[PS1UT]
Because I asked you and remember I rang you up about a week , a week ago and said , what , which number have you
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
credited ? And you said you did n't know yet .
[PS1UU]
That 's right . But er I , I erm Andrew sent off er through I B I S because we were
[PS1UT]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
quite close to the , the , the sort of er gates coming down on us , fifty thousand pounds . And I told y I said to y er before he did that I said , would it cause a client a problem if we gave them back some money ?
[FUKPSUNK]
Right .
[PS1UU]
And you said , no
[FUKPSUNK]
No .
[PS1UU]
they 'll be delighted . And I said , would you clear that with him then and tell him that it 's coming ? Erm a as you 're the project coordinator and I 'll , I 'll get it into the system ?
[PS1UW]
Right .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Our objective , the objective of giving a fifty thousand pounds refund on Green Bottom , was twofold . One was to erm reimburse them for er errors that we feel that er , we could have avoided . But the second one was to actually make it a bit of bloody exercise in marketing . Erm and I think that a well I do n't think , it 's essential that we send Regional Railways a letter , which says that we have decided to refund this , erm to assist them in er financially . [UNCLEAR] ?
[PS1UT]
Yeah . This will be , do n't you see I 'm in the process of answering a letter to Regional Railways , on the whole finances of er Leeds North Western , and I needed to know which number you 'd actually
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UT]
credited .
[PS1UU]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
Right .
[PS1UT]
Because there are various er numbers [UNCLEAR] that I know
[PS1UU]
[UNCLEAR] well [UNCLEAR] John 'll [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Rog [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
and their letter if you do that will be done .
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR] for me ? Good .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Good lad . Fine . No problem . Erm i in actual fact the , th the decision to do that , inadvertently , is , is an absolute masterstroke , because I know that er Ken is in real problems with fees for the electrification people . And he 's gon they are overspending by something like one point one million . So any contributions from
[PS1UU]
Oh we 'll have it back then .
[PS1UW]
any contribution from us
[PS1UU]
Drop in the ocean .
[PS1UW]
er is , is very handsomely received . So it was a good move that . Erm good . Next thing I got on was erm
[PS1US]
There 's two on that page by the way , two B is the item I mentioned about graduates is n't it ? Full cost of the graduate trainees
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
increases has increased the in expenditure
[PS1UU]
Yes because previous to this year , erm the R C E has been picking up a proportion of their costs .
[PS1UW]
So the next message that I was going to or the next thing I was concerned about really , was on page
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
three ,
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
item two , profitability . Er I think tha that we need to look at why there is such a significant difference in profitability , between the bridge and P Way , who are making what would appear to be a reasonable amount , er and the other four sections . And all , all I 'm looking for there are the reasons for those figures being so much different from bridge and P Way . And
[PS1UV]
Some of it by clever accounting on the part of Andrew
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UV]
by carrying some of the profit forward from last year to this year .
[PS1UU]
Yes I mean th that 's a point tha that 's erm put on there . If we , if we put the profit carried forward er that we 'd earned this year on erm the Upminster Signal thing ,
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] two hundred and forty nine thousand was n't it ?
[PS1UU]
Yes .
[FUKPSUNK]
Which is another three percent is n't it ? Which took it
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[FUKPSUNK]
up to nearly seven point nine
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[FUKPSUNK]
for B E S.
[PS1UX]
We can look at the
[PS1UW]
Co ? What , what I 'm looking for i i are two things really . One is the reasons why there 's such a difference , a and two is do we need to take any action ? And really Andrew what I want you and Trevor , what I want you and Andrew to do is , is to give me answers to that .
[FUKPSUNK]
Most of this I would think , could be
[PS1UW]
I I do n't want thinks I want facts .
[PS1UX]
No .
[FUKPSUNK]
Oh yeah .
[PS1UW]
Right ? I want to know what the difference is , and I want to know whether we need to take action or what ?
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
Okay ? So if you could do that for the next meeting I 'd be grateful .
[PS1UU]
Do you want an analysis of the , of the
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
profit [UNCLEAR] ?
[PS1US]
Why there 's a difference .
[PS1UW]
That 's right . Now the next thing erm , on the same page was , having taken away the , th th the non fee earning elements it actually pushed , and I 'm looking at your revised sheet now
[FUKPSUNK]
Yes .
[PS1UW]
it pushed B E S work supervisors and P Q S into a , a loss making situation , admittedly only marginally . Erm and , and that wants to be part of that exercise , really , of , of looking at the reasons a a and telling us whether we need to take any action .
[PS1UU]
Well she 's picked it up [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
Five thousand loss
[PS1UT]
on a works supervisor .
[FUKPSUNK]
And [UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] . Yes .
[PS1US]
It means the rates are wrong for works supervisors does n't it ?
[PS1UU]
No . It means the rates are virtually right does n't it ? What we 've charged , what we 've charged the supervisors off with , is the full time C O three plus er pager , self-owned transport
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UU]
me and er
[PS1US]
Well you got one [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Well the question then is do we need to be charging work supervisors
[PS1UU]
and [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
out a to our clients at a higher rate in future ?
[PS1US]
That 's what I 'm saying . Yes .
[PS1UU]
Well
[PS1US]
Because of the overtime scenario . Make some money . It 's a part that even [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Roger 's been complaining to me
[PS1UT]
Ah
[PS1UU]
that the supervisor rate is far too high a a and that 's one of the reasons
[PS1UW]
But we 're losing money on it .
[PS1US]
Losing money on it . Yeah . How can it be too high ?
[PS1UU]
Well we are losing we 're breaking even on it . We 're not [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
It says we 're losing money there .
[PS1UW]
The group as a whole
[PS1UU]
You co you could turn round and say , alright they did n't have a full time C O three they had
[PS1UT]
But supervisor
[PS1UW]
Right .
[PS1UT]
rate is , i i is that salary
[PS1UW]
Does n't matter .
[PS1UT]
divided by sixteen hundred times two point six ?
[PS1UU]
No .
[PS1UT]
No .
[PS1UU]
No . It 's been reduced . Because of you .
[PS1UT]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
Right . I I 'll buy that . One thousand pounds on , what 's the total expenditure ?
[PS1US]
No . Five thousand pounds .
[PS1UT]
Five thousand .
[PS1UU]
Five thousand pounds on five hundred
[PS1UW]
Thousand .
[PS1UU]
thousand [UNCLEAR] [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] Is it ?
[PS1UU]
One percent .
[PS1UV]
B E S has more or
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
less broken even as well as you see . Th this
[PS1UW]
Yeah . But really why ? I mean we , we should be
[PS1UV]
But I mean we all are .
[PS1UW]
targeting at making a modest profit .
[PS1UU]
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
We 're targeted at making a modest
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
profit for the group .
[PS1US]
Group .
[PS1UU]
Right ? The modest
[FUKPSUNK]
That 's right .
[PS1UU]
profit for the group is a hundred and ninety thousand pounds .
[PS1UW]
Which is superb . Jus just about
[PS1UU]
Right .
[PS1UW]
right .
[PS1UU]
Okay . If we , if we had targeted making a profit of say five hundred and sixty five thousand pounds just for instance
[PS1UW]
Right .
[PS1UU]
everybody would have made
[PS1UW]
A sound argument .
[PS1UU]
a reasonable profit but some would have made more than others . When you 're looking at an , a a a an average profit for the group erm you [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
I 'll tell you what it 's a sound argument for the time being but it 's not a sound argument if we 're involved in a management buy out .
[PS1UV]
Aye but you 've got ta
[FUKPSUNK]
Ah yes .
[PS1UV]
you 've got ta look at [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Ah y y [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
[UNCLEAR] alternatives . You got ta decide whether or not one service allows
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
you to provide another one or not .
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] embarrassing in future .
[PS1UV]
You 've got ta look at your rates there 's a lot of things you 've got ta [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
You see if you 'd tagged , if you 'd added the work supervisor costs into Roger 's cost centre there would have been no worries . You would n't have even noticed that they were making [UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
th they were only just breaking even .
[FUKPSUNK]
And also the works supervisor , they 've added nearly twenty eight thousand pounds to the organization .
[PS1UU]
They 've made a contribution towards
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
the costs , and if , if we had n't got the supervisors then you would have all made a proportion
[PS1UT]
Mm
[PS1UU]
less of that profit , because that twenty eight thousand pounds would have had to have been
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
found by somebody else .
[PS1US]
I , I must be er
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] ?
[PS1US]
Yeah but the net isn b the net cost is five less , five thousand lost not twenty eight
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
in .
[PS1UU]
No . No . No . No . [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
You 're five out .
[FUKPSUNK]
If you took the work supervisors out [UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
[FUKPSUNK]
out the group all together
[PS1US]
Yes .
[FUKPSUNK]
you would be twenty eight thousand pounds less .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
because you still have the same
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] organization .
[PS1UU]
You 'd still have the quality manager the safety engineer
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
and Hugh [ANONYMIZATION] and Nola to pay .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] twenty one percent [UNCLEAR] [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
And i they are making a positive contribution of twenty eight thousand pounds towards those overheads
[PS1UW]
Right . Gents I , I do n't think it 's worth spending that much time on that . I , I mean I , I wanted to raise that . I 'm reasonably convinced
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
well I am convinced by Andrew 's explanation erm I would like to say in terms of when we look at the staff costs against budget , and we came in at only eleven thousand pounds less , er I think that is a erm that we , we , we can congratulate our business manager , on the good control that 's been exercised over the past year . Is that reasonable ?
[FUKPSUNK]
There was a th
[PS1UW]
Jiggery-pokery ?
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] . More luck than good [UNCLEAR] [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
I think so because I do n't know where we got
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
what with the amount of to-ing and fro-ing with agency staff and vacancies er that we 've got erm
[FUKPSUNK]
And the graduates initially were only putting in about a hundred and thirty three thousand and they came out as four and a half .
[PS1UW]
Right . Oh well I take back what I said then .
[PS1UU]
Please take it back . Because that is bound to be a volatile part of the business .
[PS1V0]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
Can I ? I 'm , I 'm not an accountant or an economist
[FUKPSUNK]
No .
[PS1US]
or anything like that [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UT]
But by God , you 've got a lot of money . Yeah .
[PS1US]
But , bloody wish we had .
[FUKPSUNK]
[PS1US]
But one thing that is very relevant which , which you 've got ta think about is that , we all thought Operation Quickspend was great news did n't we ?
[PS1UW]
Yes .
[PS1UU]
It 's bad news is n't it ?
[PS1US]
We did . It 's absolutely the worst type of business we ought to be
[PS1UT]
Hear hear .
[PS1US]
doing .
[PS1UW]
I 'll buy that .
[PS1US]
Because it
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
involves staff in overtime
[PS1UU]
Yeah . Which [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
to get the job done which we can not recover .
[PS1UT]
And it meant that jobs you 'd already got planned
[PS1US]
So that 's
[PS1UT]
were thrown into chaos
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UT]
anyway [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
But
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
But
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] think it 's good business when it 's
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
really bad news .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
I [UNCLEAR] bad news Terry but it 's work .
[PS1UU]
It 's bad news , it 's bad news on a time basis .
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
It 's good news if we do it on a fixed fee and say , we have had to enhance some of our rates
[PS1US]
Correct .
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UU]
to cover certain bits and
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
pieces .
[PS1US]
Correct . But we [UNCLEAR] Yeah .
[PS1UT]
But it 's a good marketing exercise the fact that you do it .
[PS1US]
It is and in terms of
[PS1UU]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
profitability [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
You can turn round and say [UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
Get lost .
[PS1US]
it 's destroyed the figures .
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] no use going to York they ca n't [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1US]
Yeah but the [UNCLEAR] the funny thing was that if we had n't
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
of done Quickspend , you 'd have been looking at figures that showed a lot more profitability .
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[FUKPSUNK]
Oh [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UU]
Yes .
[FUKPSUNK]
Er ?
[PS1US]
You would .
[PS1UU]
No . I think [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
It would because the overtime [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
[UNCLEAR] the same profit .
[FUKPSUNK]
If you 're charging off er an M S two on a twenty four pound an hour
[PS1US]
It 's the supervisors that are the problem .
[PS1UU]
The supervisors when they work double time
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
contribute something like about fifty P an hour towards the overheads .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
That 's all .
[PS1UU]
It is a positive contribution though
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
a and , and their standard their standard year , the their standard year
[PS1US]
But their expenses you [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UU]
does ah ri yes . There 's the expenses .
[PS1US]
There 's all their expenses [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UU]
But their standard year does erm make the normal
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
contribution
[PS1US]
Anyway
[PS1UU]
towards the overheads .
[PS1US]
It 's not quite the bonanza we think it
[PS1UW]
Do we need ?
[PS1US]
is when you 're doing a Quickspend . You think
[PS1UW]
No .
[PS1US]
great ! You know loads of work . [UNCLEAR] money in but in actual fact it 's , it 's going out faster than it 's coming in .
[FUKPSUNK]
No i
[PS1UW]
Thanks for pointing that out Terry
[PS1UU]
No . I i i it 's not .
[PS1UU]
But i it 's
[PS1US]
But [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Well you have raised a point
[PS1UW]
and that is that
[FUKPSUNK]
No .
[PS1UW]
the over the next [UNCLEAR] years
[PS1US]
We just spent seven thousand quid on Alwyn [ANONYMIZATION] that 's non-recoverable because of Quickspend .
[PS1UW]
Te the important message that you 're , you 've raised and it is a very important one , is that over the next years , I mean we , we will have to change the way that we charge for
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
that service .
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
I mean at the moment we ca n't . There 's no benefit to us . All we would
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
do is end up making a bigger profit
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
which , which we would just have
[PS1US]
Do you think ?
[PS1UW]
to put into limbo .
[PS1US]
Sorry . Andrew did n't think I was right there .
[PS1UU]
He 's not .
[PS1US]
You , you
[PS1UU]
No .
[PS1US]
you , you sh you shook you head when I said Alwyn had made a loss .
[PS1UU]
No . Yes .
[FUKPSUNK]
He would have earned more income on the seven thousand pounds .
[PS1UU]
He would because some of it is only time and a third
[PS1US]
No . That seven thousand was only the overtime payment .
[PS1UW]
Yes .
[PS1US]
He was getting paid standard time anyway and the hours going forward on DOPACS
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] seven thousand [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
for site supervision would only be straightforward hours .
[PS1UU]
Yes . But if , if , if Alwyn makes his normal contribution during his thirty six and a half hour week
[PS1UT]
Two point six .
[PS1UU]
then if we 're charging him out at roughly two point one , which I think we are something like that with our discount
[PS1UW]
He 's already covered his overheads .
[PS1UU]
he 's covered his overheads . If we pay him at time and three quarters which is the most we can pay him , we 're still making point six of a er on top of that .
[FUKPSUNK]
The contribution that he actually earns is [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1US]
I ca n't believe you 're telling me the truth because that would mean if everybody worked overtime on that basis , we 'd all still making a profit .
[PS1UW]
Yes .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] much though .
[PS1US]
Ca n't work .
[PS1UU]
You do n't make very much but you make a bit .
[PS1US]
It ca n't be true cos
[PS1UU]
As a percentage
[PS1UT]
Have a look [UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
It 's close .
[PS1US]
it ca I mean that just ca n't be true .
[PS1UU]
Alright .
[PS1UW]
Right . Next thing .
[PS1UV]
Can I raise one final point
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
on this ? And that is I think the costs
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UV]
the on-costs er to B E S , and it 's pro-rata to the others , of fifty six thousand pounds for services largely at the business planning manager . I would like to know what I get for that .
[PS1UW]
Right . Well
[PS1UV]
That 's equivalent to two members of staff .
[PS1UW]
I w I was coming , I was coming almost to that Jim . Do you mind if I just
[PS1UV]
No .
[PS1UW]
raise a , a very fundamental point ? And this is i if I take it t to sheet ten , which is the staff numbers statement .
[FUKPSUNK]
Is this with Irish ? No ?
[PS1UW]
No . Staff numbers statement erm and , and we look at the right hand column , you will find that we have a hundred and thirty nine fee earning people , and fifty eight support . Which works out as a percentage , that twenty nine percent of our staff [UNCLEAR] the moment are support staff . I believe that is too high .
[PS1UV]
So do I .
[FUKPSUNK]
Some are trainees actually do maybe I 've classed the fee earning staff which are on the areas , actually maybe some are n't actually non fee earners . The twenty three trainees .
[PS1UW]
Right . Can I ? Cos what I w I mean it 's jus t I do n't [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Oh yes . You 've got the you 've got all the twenty three in there a and
[FUKPSUNK]
They 'll be
[PS1UU]
three quarters of those are fee earning at any one time .
[PS1UW]
Right . Whi ? Well I would like those numbers t to be adjusted . I 'll tell you what I was gon na do er I was gon na point out two things . One is that twenty nine percent is too high and you 've explained that is n't , that is an artificial figure .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
And if it 's an artificial figure then we should readjust the figures to
[PS1UV]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
to show the realism of the situation . I was gon na compare that with the er th th the , the numbers under your heading of actual , where we have an establishment of two hundred and forty eight . Right ?
[PS1UT]
No . Cos if
[PS1UU]
Yes .
[PS1UT]
Ah yeah .
[PS1UW]
Two hundred and forty eight .
[PS1UT]
Mhm .
[PS1UW]
Now twenty nine as a proportion of two hundred and forty eight , works out as er somewhere around about ten percent . Right ?
[PS1UT]
Mhm .
[FUKPSUNK]
That 's twenty nine percent [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Oh shit ! Sorry .
[PS1UT]
Fifty eight of two hundred and forty eight .
[PS1UW]
If it 's still , it 's twenty five percent is n't it ? Yeah . It 's still high . Right .
[FUKPSUNK]
There is [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UU]
Yes .
[PS1UW]
Right .
[PS1UU]
That 's always the case .
[PS1UW]
Yeah . Yeah . Okay . So we 've come the premise . Erm twenty nine percent is too high . What is the actual percentage of support compared to fee earning ? That is the next question . And then the final question is , what is what should our target percentage be ?
[PS1UU]
And then the next question is , what do we prep
[PS1UW]
How do we ? What do we do about it ?
[PS1UU]
what services that we incur at the moment , are we prepared to give up ?
[PS1UW]
What do we do about it ? That 's right . Because I take it that that support , those non , those support non fee earning staff are , me and Nola , er the clerical staff in P Way , works , B E S
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
bridges
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
almost the whole of erm [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
The whole of my organization .
[PS1UW]
of , of , of Trevor 's organization ,
[FUKPSUNK]
Q [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
And , and , and
[PS1UW]
And Q [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
And Quality and erm
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
the clerical staff in the Quantity Surveyors .
[PS1UW]
Over to you Jim . Sorry . I just I wanted to bring that out because I do feel that twenty nine percent is , is too high . Er an and I
[FUKPSUNK]
No .
[PS1UW]
I have noted what Andrew 's said about the graduates , and that we are actually getting some fee earning
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
from them .
[PS1UV]
Well look at , look at , look at that my organization bought for twenty six , twenty seven staff , fifty four thousand pounds .
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UV]
Now two thousand pounds per member of staff I , I feel that it 's a very very high figure . Considering we 're paying for personnel on top of it and , and all the other things like telephones and accommodation . I asked the question , what am I getting for two thousand pounds a head ?
[PS1UW]
Does that two ? Is that two thousand pounds s purely from business planning management ?
[PS1UV]
Well well the majority of , of it is . Yes . I mean [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Or is it from your own clerical section ?
[PS1UV]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
No . No . No . Over and above the fact that he has three clerks ,
[PS1UW]
Right .
[PS1UU]
he h is to , having to pick up on a per capita basis of fee earners , which is how Andrew has distributed these costs .
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UU]
He 's having to pick up the equivalent of
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
two thousand pounds per fee earner . To enjoy
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
having you and Nola , Trudy and
[PS1UW]
Dennis . No and Peter .
[PS1UU]
Peter and my organization . Now Jim 's arguing
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
perhaps
[PS1UW]
That it 's too high .
[PS1UU]
that it 's too high .
[PS1UV]
Well it 's equivalent , it 's equivalent
[PS1UW]
I do n't disagree .
[PS1UV]
to two to three staff . It 's almost I could take on board another two to three clerks , and I could say , could I do what
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
that overhead currently does for me ?
[PS1UW]
Right .
[PS1UV]
With an extra two to three people ? Now tha that 's just very crude putting it [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UT]
But you could n't . You could n't do the DOPACS could you ? You co you co
[PS1UW]
Cos the I Ts support er
[PS1US]
I think what is more interesting [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
Why could n't I do the DOPACS ?
[PS1UW]
Safety . [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
Why ca n't I do appointment contracts ? I 've argued this for long enough . Yes I can .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
Not , not , not , not [UNCLEAR] . Yes I want to or [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
Can I make the point
[PS1UT]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] got ta emphasize Jim 's
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
I do n't know the answers but I 'm gon na emphasize the point now . Jim did say if I looked at mine , and I only have just looked at it er if I 've read the fig if I 've read the figures right and I
[PS1UV]
[UNCLEAR] you pay a lot more than [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1US]
have n't got many more staff only about
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR] twenty four .
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
Would you pay ?
[PS1US]
I pay seventy seven thousand pounds .
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1US]
Which is an hell of a lot of money compared to your
[PS1UW]
Gents I
[PS1US]
lot .
[PS1UW]
I , I , I think
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Pardon ?
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR] staff .
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1US]
And thirty two staff when I 'm paying seventy
[PS1UW]
Well Rog Roger [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
seven thousand quid .
[PS1UT]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
Well all the same proportions are n't they ? We 're
[PS1UU]
Yes .
[PS1UV]
paying the same for it .
[PS1UW]
Again . Can I suggest that what we need to do
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
about this
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
is we 've i highlighted
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
a problem , and I think it is a genuine problem , probably the biggest problem that we have to address at the moment . Erm and I
[PS1UT]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
I think
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
we should , we should set a target , an initial target , that we wish to hi to hit . And a as a crude thing I was gon na suggest erm two course of action . One is Andrew goes away now and readjusts these figures , t to put the graduates , some of the graduates into the fee earning er column . Come up with a revised percentage .
[PS1UU]
That 's not gon na affect the point that Jim Jim 's talking about
[PS1UW]
It is .
[PS1UU]
poun no he 's not . Jim 's talking about pounds . Jim 's talking about the fact th th th the salaries of the graduates do n't come into that . The gr the , the salaries of the graduates have been shared out among the people who have earned fees from them while they 've been there .
[PS1US]
Individually . [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
[UNCLEAR] I made a thirty four thousand pound profit at the end of March , and then Trevor gave me a bill for fifty six thousand
[PS1UW]
Which demolished the whole lot and more .
[PS1UV]
for his services . Now the
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
point is , another point to note is I had
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UV]
no idea that charge was coming on board .
[PS1UW]
Well that 's not good enough .
[PS1UV]
Way through
[FUKPSUNK]
Ah .
[PS1UV]
the financial year . I did n't
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Now
[PS1UW]
Well that 's not good enough .
[PS1UU]
Wait a minute . Wait a minute . That 's not fair .
[PS1UV]
I did n't .
[PS1UU]
We when we have , when we have done , I mean tha that 's is n't a a charge to you . You wo n't actually have to pay it out . All we 've actually done is to say , right
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
if we 've got these overheads , I mean it was always shown as another lump of money in the bottom . Business and planning manager , minus so much or in brackets or whatever . What we decided to do , because I thought that 's what you 'd been pressing for , was to show that as the equivalent affect of , okay , you think you 're making these profits but you 're actually enjoying services that you 're not paying for .
[PS1UV]
About period ten and correct me if I 'm wrong Andrew I was told it would be about a thousand , roughly a thousand pounds per fee earning employee . It 's over two thousand pounds per fee earning employee .
[PS1UU]
Well then Andrew gave you
[PS1UV]
Now what
[PS1UU]
the wrong figure .
[PS1UV]
Well what I 'm saying is , yeah and I mean we 're all learning by this . If you 're gon na run a business , you need to know what charges are coming on board you so you can adjust your rates so you
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UV]
can go for
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
more work
[PS1UU]
But , but we
[PS1UV]
and this sort of thing .
[PS1UU]
But , but we are adjusting our rates and going for more work on the basis of a group ,
[PS1UW]
Yes .
[PS1UU]
and not on the basis of individual offices .
[PS1US]
Right . But I think what 's [UNCLEAR] , what
[PS1UV]
Oh no , no , no , no . Hey
[PS1US]
may be of relevance
[PS1UV]
wait a minute . If I 'm
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
accountable
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UV]
for the performance of B E S which I am
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] group . Yeah .
[PS1UV]
rightly so
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
I 've got ta have authority to run it . And that means I 've got ta have the information upon which to run it .
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
You could . That could be [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
If I 've got a gap in the workload I can go and
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UV]
fill a gap .
[PS1US]
But I think I , I think what I 'd like to
[PS1UV]
You know .
[PS1US]
know Hugh , to try to help [UNCLEAR] the point
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
I 'd like to know what the staff do in Trevor 's organization . If that is n't a rude question .
[PS1UV]
[UNCLEAR] not on . This is , I , I 'm not looking for a [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR] . You see I have some [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Oh why not ? It 's er
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
No . No . Trevor . No . Wh wh when we 're looking at
[PS1UU]
Alright then .
[PS1US]
when we 're looking at cost , cost and what have you . You know what can be done elsewhere and how we can best utilize existing staff , it may well be as somebody has said , that I mean we 've got Rachel there , just to pick on one post , where you 're , cos it 's one I happen to know what 's she , what 's she supposed to be doing . Or some of what she 's supposed to be doing
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1US]
is to be honest she 's of little benefit to my organization . She organizes training
[PS1UW]
Mhm .
[PS1US]
but Jeremy could do that . One of my other clerks could actually do that .
[PS1UW]
Or we could take the work off Jeremy
[PS1UU]
Or , or , yes , I mean wh what
[PS1UW]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
you could ac what you , what you , you 've got ta be careful what you 're
[PS1UW]
We could centralize training again .
[PS1UU]
actually saying is that perhaps you do n't need
[PS1US]
Well I do n't know what the , I do n't know what the [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
three clerks
[PS1UW]
Absolutely .
[PS1UU]
in each of the design functions .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yes .
[PS1UU]
And two clerks is , which is what
[PS1UW]
Quite .
[PS1UU]
Norman manages with , might more be the order of the day .
[PS1UW]
Wh what I would like to
[PS1UV]
I agree .
[PS1UW]
suggest we do , beca because it is a very valid point
[PS1US]
I 've only got two [UNCLEAR] supervisors .
[PS1UW]
and , and it 's one that I think is , it is a priority one for addressing , I think we should ask Trevor er and An and Andrew , t to draw up if you like details of the whole of the costs of the overheads within this organization . I mean we know wha we know what Trevor 's is a Trevor 's is transparent . It 's three hundred and twenty two thousand pounds a year .
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
Er what I
[PS1UV]
Yeah but what ? What are we actually getting for that ?
[PS1UW]
Right . Wh what I was gon na su
[PS1UV]
[UNCLEAR] fifty thousand [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
I seriously think Hugh coming back to my point , I seriously do n't know what
[PS1UV]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
those staff do .
[PS1UW]
Yeah . I [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
I know what some of them do
[PS1UW]
Let me finish .
[PS1US]
I ca n't assess
[PS1UW]
I was I was gon na suggest that Trevor an an and Andrew draw up
[PS1V0]
Do you know what yours do ?
[PS1US]
Yes .
[FUKPSUNK]
Shh .
[FUKPSUNK]
[PS1US]
Yes .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
Trevor and Andrew draw up a comprehensive list of
[PS1US]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
what the overall overhead is for this organization , in terms of people
[PS1UX]
[PS1UW]
and expenses and so on . That we then analyze that , that , that , that report indicates what people do , and we analyze , if you like , where we can investigate possible reductions .
[PS1US]
Alternative ways of doing it .
[PS1UW]
Because I mean if we add all these together gents , I mean I pi I homed in on the number , on , on the people , because if you look at our budgets , staff costs are something like ninety percent of our budget
[PS1UV]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
make up .
[PS1US]
Yeah .
[PS1UW]
Which means that , that twenty nine percent is n't far off representing the overhead charge on this organization .
[PS1UV]
I know .
[PS1UW]
And I , and I said my premise was , if that 's the case , it 's too bloody high . And my initial target then would be to say , look , what would we have to do to reduce that twenty nine percent to twenty percent ? Would it be get rid of one of Roger 's clerks ? Get rid of Rachel ? Get rid of me ? Get rid of Nola ? But you know what , what would we want to do
[PS1UV]
You have to ask the questions
[PS1UW]
to bring that down ?
[PS1UV]
do n't you ? If you do n't ask the question the charges will
[PS1UW]
Now that
[PS1UV]
just go up .
[PS1UW]
that is what I employ a business manager to do .
[PS1US]
I mean maybe the money , a lot of , is it , is anything to do with the , not the staff costs , but in actual fact the C A D equipment we 've bought ?
[PS1UV]
No it 's additional [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UU]
No it 's not . No . This is pure staff .
[PS1UV]
It 's got nothing to do with that . This is
[FUKPSUNK]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
this is purely staff costs .
[FUKPSUNK]
Purely staff costs .
[PS1UV]
Because there 's er
[PS1UW]
So c
[PS1UV]
Well
[PS1UW]
I would suggest that is the action that we take . Thank you for raising it but I think we should now get Trevor to er draw up er a report on , on , on what the make-up of the overheads on this organization is . Erm what we get for the money , and erm where there are possibilities for us to consider reducing that overhead .
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
And we might not like what we see . But we might on the other hand . And it might be like [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UV]
And be pretty sure we 're not as efficient as we sh as we should be and I 'm not just talking about
[FUKPSUNK]
I mean apart from costs
[PS1UV]
[UNCLEAR] our own offices .
[FUKPSUNK]
the administration [UNCLEAR]
[PS1US]
I think the drive next year there ought to be a theme .
[PS1UW]
Sorry ca can we just let this [UNCLEAR] ?
[FUKPSUNK]
Part of the cost cos we divide the charge of the [UNCLEAR] into our organization on a staff number basis for admin charges , typing services ,
[PS1UW]
Mhm .
[FUKPSUNK]
we get a share of the typing services , or the , the print unit [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UW]
Mhm .
[FUKPSUNK]
Our organization does n't actually use it .
[PS1UU]
Do n't use it . Yeah .
[FUKPSUNK]
So what we 're doing is we then send them this , why do n't we pass it out to the other piece of the group ?
[PS1UW]
Mhm .
[FUKPSUNK]
This is really their share back again . But that admin charge it would ge get charged from Intercity East Coast . If we were n't there , the plan print room would still cost the same amount of money .
[PS1UW]
It would n't
[PS1UU]
I see .
[PS1UW]
cost us because [UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
Yeah . So effectively we 're paying , whilst we never use the typing pool or the plan print room , we 're paying a proportion of those costs on a per capita basis
[FUKPSUNK]
That 's it .
[PS1UU]
and then passing those back to you .
[PS1US]
And the typists .
[FUKPSUNK]
Yes .
[PS1UW]
Well look . Let us , let us see what it is
[PS1US]
I could manage that [UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
Mm .
[PS1UW]
l let's get it transparent . Let's get it on
[FUKPSUNK]
Put it on the table . Yeah .
[PS1UW]
the table , and see what the build up of th of the ov
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UW]
overall overhead on this organization is , and whether there are areas that we could er th that we could change .
[PS1UU]
I mean we could rejig things and charge sort of sixty or seventy percent of Rachel 's time against the graduates and then charge that back off
[PS1UW]
It does n't [UNCLEAR] .
[PS1UU]
against the people that use the graduates .
[PS1UW]
But , but you 're not reducing the overhead on the organization .
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
No you 're not you 're ju you 're
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UU]
just moving it around a a and just makes it more acceptable
[PS1UW]
And that 's not the object of the exercise .
[PS1UU]
to Jim and less acceptable
[PS1UW]
Yeah .
[PS1UU]
to Roger and Terry .
[PS1UV]
I 've had to turn half of one of my clerks over to fee earning work . But I did it deliberately because the
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UV]
I did n't have enough work for three clerks .
[PS1UU]
Absolutely . I
[PS1UV]
But I do n't , but I ca n't manage
[PS1UW]
Mm .
[PS1UV]
with just two . That 's the problem . When you 've small numbers you get into difficulties
[FUKPSUNK]
[UNCLEAR]
[PS1UV]
of