WMN: t3_2l6x4s_t1_cls2eiw--TIO1

[TITLE]

CMV: Nothing matters, and nothing is important

[lurkboi]

I have been struggling to find the meaning in anything lately. If someone were to talk to me, I assume they would classify me as an atheist, as I do not think that there is a continuation of any sort after death. Some say that life is important and life matters BECAUSE it ends, which is a beautiful thought in my head; however, I can't get behind it because nothing is permanent. For example, why does it matter whether someone acts justly and is a good person versus acting vile and offensive? I'm not saying that we should all be dicks to each other, but what I am saying is that in the long run, there will be no evidence of someone acting either way. Most people will be completely forgotten within 100 years of their death. I used to believe that I should strive to be one of the lucky few who should rise above and do something so great that they are remembered indefinitely. Nowadays, I realize that this was a stupid thought because on a long enough timeline, everything that everyone has ever done will be lost. (When the sun explodes or even if some of us survive that when some sort of cosmic event destroys every part of the universe we are a part of. OR even simply when the human race becomes extinct or if we evolve when all of the branches of the tree that came from us falls to extinction). After that, I felt that helping people mattered, because even if I couldn't be remembered, I could still have an effect on people's lives in a positive manner and that has to count for something; however, if everyone who you helped is one day going to be long gone, and every inkling of evidence that you or anyone you ever came into contact with even existed will be gone from the universe, then what is the point? How does anything matter? That being said, I recognize that if nothing matters, than perhaps because of that fact, maybe, just maybe, everything is important. Perhaps every single blade of grass, moment in time, leaf in the wind is infact important. This is the point of view that I would like to adopt, but right now, it seems that it takes too much faith and not enough logic for me to take the step into this mindset. If anyone has this mindset or has someway for me to rationalize this view, please, feel free to comment. Lastly, I would like to keep this thread on topic. I realize that i made certain religious/non-religious assumptions and would not like this to become a religious debate. Moreover, I recognize that my thoughts here are extremely depressing, but I am not here to debate my psychological state of mind. I am seeking help for this depression already and am simply here to discuss this philosophical viewpoint. _____ > *Hello, users of CMV! This is a footnote from your moderators. We'd just like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please remember to* ***[read through our rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules)***. *If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which,* ***[downvotes don't change views](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/guidelines#wiki_upvoting.2Fdownvoting)****! If you are thinking about submitting a CMV yourself, please have a look through our* ***[popular topics wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/populartopics)*** *first. Any questions or concerns? Feel free to* ***[message us](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/changemyview)***. *Happy CMVing!*

[Anticarnist]

What you describe is exactly how my husband explains his apathy towards charity, animal cruelty and why he will never be vegetarian like myself. I disagree with it because I believe that because all life is temporary, and because we as humans are able to realise that, it is our duty to minimise as much suffering as possible, for as many as possible. At the same time however, I know that because there aren't enough people with this goal in mind, minimal suffering will likely never be achieved. However, I feel it is my responsibility to some extent to act as a good a person as I am able - simply because that is the path towards making myself happy as well as others. It is about living in the present as well as you possibly can because that's all we'll ever have. Make the most of being here before you vanish for eternity and ensure as many of those around you (of all species) do the same. We might as well.

[fae_lai]

as a nihilist, i aggree. nothing matters, nothing is important. but rememebr the nihilistic premise. i know nothing, therefore i know something. another part of the view, is that importance is nothing. youa re right about the ephemeral and epervesent aspect of our lives; individuals, ethnicities and even our species. all will vanish to nothing. but even that is something. even the limit of lack is a limit. even when the universe pays the iron price, there is still iron. adn there is certainty. i take comfort in the certainty. mistakes will mechanically be forgiven allong side the beneficence, and only the most macro expressions of altruism will have speci-al significance to live beyond my mind's dimest imaginings. i take comfort in not believing in life, and in the idea of ideas and behaviours as virus which make me embodied by the whole of humanity. much like an ant sacrificing itself for a hive, even if it never becomes princess or queen. it means that there is no consequence to anything, by being. i can't fail my ambitions, nor can i secede them. which leads us to a hard topic. the existential crisis of the void. most things die, except nothing. the only immortal escape is through nothing, but it has a zero point escape horizon. there is no abating it. so why don't we charge at death? because that only makes us feel alive, it is a placebo but does nothing. if the nothingness of death is the nothingness before life. there need no worry, no sorrow, but also no curiosity. it is ultimate nothing, as are we. we need to let ourselves be, for we will be somethign else soon enough. we don't need to hurry, for there is no reward, nor need we drag our feet. just be. don't trip yourself in trepidation of the inevitable, and don't use consequence as justification it isn't natural. and while it shares the same flaw as causation, humans tend to experiance that more earnestly. i reccomend you let yourself be distracted from the disinterest of the void. pick up a hobby, or consider a variable, find something to do because your feels tell you to do so.

[Valtieri]

I'm of the opinion that spending enough time as a pseudo-nihilist will turn you into a pseudo-hedonist. When you come to the conclusion that "nothing matters, so I may as well enjoy it," then you understand that certain things need to be done to foster said enjoyment. So, it's important that I treat my friends and family with respect. It's important that I have a job and show up on time. It's important that I not let minor inconveniences put a damper on my day. It's really just a fancy way of saying "life is what you make of it," but I find that talking through the thought process to get there makes that statement carry much more of an impact!

[kabukistar]

If nothing matters, why make a CMV?

[Chen19960615]

If I punch you in the face, the moment my fist makes contact with your skull, you probably aren't thinking "this pain is meaningless. Nobody will remember this in a few billion years. It doesn't matter." You probably are thinking "ow". The pain is real to you, even if it's temporary. Therefore you would seek to avoid it. Conversely, any pleasure in life is real to you, even if it will not last, or be remembered forever. Likewise, any action which others will say are meaningful, like community service, spending time with family, or scientific progress are meaningful not in their longevity or importance of effect, but in that effect itself, namely, how that action makes, or would make, you or someone else feel.

[ArchitectofAges]

I made a video precisely for existential crisis like this: http://youtu.be/aqjZqzM3rqg

[lurkboi]

∆ I really like this, basically sums up how I feel but it gave me new perspective about how it is okay that my values only matter to me

[ArchitectofAges]

Happy to help. :-) It's not a trivial thing.

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[iamthelol1]

You are a nihilist, I believe that's what this is called. If you cannot find something important, then start acting like everything is important. Try it.

[lurkboi]

I have never classified myself as a nihilist, as I honestly must plead ignorance to the true meaning of the term.

[iamthelol1]

A nihilist is someone who believes that nothing is material and nothing matters. Pretty close to your view I guess

[FeloniousMonk94]

Firstly, what could you mean by saying that there is no meaning? In this context, I think you mean some objective purpose to which we all must strive. You do not seem to deny the "meaning" or purpose in the act of helping people or pursuing your higher desires, but say that these are *ultimately* "meaningless" because of their impermanence. I wish to challenge your notion that the temporality of an action has any impact as to whether an action is "meaningful". (I would prefer purposeful) You've seen those timelapse photos, haven't you? where an image condenses all that occurred over an hour, and the whole period is captured? Imagine that is the case with the universe. You may be but a small arch in that cosmic sculture of condensed time and space, but your actions and their consequences persist throughout existence. So, it is not that your actions (or rather, their consequences) are impermanent in a physical sense. What about in terms of human meaning? In this sense, our actions are likely to be less permanent. However, a good sustained for 10 days is as meaningful or otherwise as a good sustained for 10 years. It is merely that some goods are sustainable and others not. It is clearly preferable to have 10 years of quality living than to have 10 years of miserable living, even if death inevitably looms. It is mistaken to think that because something is only good now, that it isn't good because it is temporary. Things matter on the basis to which we ascribe them importance. That is to say, my loved ones matter to *me* because I ascribe them that value. Further, we can develop systems of ethics that accord entities moral importance based solely on their cognitive features, like utilitarianism, because we recognise the important features of being able to value our own experience (self-awareness, minimal intelligence, consciousness, an ability to experience pain) In an atheistic universe, the only people capable of producing meaning are beings that are cognitively sophisticated, like humans. It is objectively true that people value things, and the things they value are objectively valuable to those that value them. Where does the problem arise from, then? I feel your issue is a result of ultimately incoherent views on meaning, in a way similar to folk free will as an incoherent concept.

[tobynomates]

[STA-CITE]>I can't get behind it because nothing is permanent [END-CITE]and thank god for that. would you want anything to be permanent? what if you were permanently sad? impermanence is a good thing. [STA-CITE]>however, if everyone who you helped is one day going to be long gone, and every inkling of evidence that you or anyone you ever came into contact with even existed will be gone from the universe, then what is the point? [END-CITE]this is kind of confusing. isnt it obvious? alleviating suffering for the sake of alleviating suffering. just because they're going to die doesnt mean you shouldnt bother to make them happier. I dont see the logic there. the real question here is how do you define importance?

[lurkboi]

I mean for certain, If I were given a choice to either alleviate someone's suffering or not, then I would choose to alleviate their suffering; however, that doesn't mean that that instance had meaning. If some time in the future, the universe is in a state where it would be exactly the same whether or not I helped the person, doesn't that mean that moment didn't matter?

[tobynomates]

[STA-CITE]> however, that doesn't mean that that instance had meaning [END-CITE]what is meaning to you? why dont you feel that you have the authority to decide for yourself what does and doesnt have meaning? doesnt it seem like virtuous acts matter a lot, since we would all live lives of suffering without them? [STA-CITE]>If some time in the future, the universe is in a state where it would be exactly the same whether or not I helped the person, doesn't that mean that moment didn't matter? [END-CITE]did it make you feel good? did it make them feel good? why isnt that enough to be important? it seems like it matters to me. I still dont really understand your definition of meaning and importance.

[lurkboi]

You are right when you say that we would all live lives of suffering without virtuous acts, and that doing good deeds does in fact make me feel good. That being said, I am still failing to understand why they matter if in the long term, the universe will be exactly the same if I didn't do the good deed. It feels to me as if I should still do the deed, but it is all a failed effort, and all for nothing.

[tobynomates]

doesnt this [STA-CITE]> You are right when you say that we would all live lives of suffering without virtuous acts, and that doing good deeds does in fact make me feel good. [END-CITE]contradict this? [STA-CITE]>That being said, I am still failing to understand why they matter if in the long term, the universe will be exactly the same if I didn't do the good deed [END-CITE]the universe isnt exactly the same. sure if you zoom out far enough, we, as humans wouldnt be able to use out 5 senses to notice the good deeds, but we arent zoomed out. we can and do see good deeds happening, and they are the universe changing. Im not saying this is likely, but how do you *know* that our good deeds dont reverberate all throughout the universe, being appreciated by cosmic beings from far-away galaxies? Why rule that out? [STA-CITE]>It feels to me as if I should still do the deed, but it is all a failed effort, and all for nothing. [END-CITE]why does something have to noticeably affect the entire universe in order to be important? isnt that just an impossible standard to set?

[lurkboi]

Well anything with a lasting effect no matter how insignificant does effect the universe, but every possible effect I can make is not a lasting one. As much as I would like to think that there are some far away cosmic beings appreciating my good deeds, I do not think I can live my life based on this faint hope. I do not think they contradict each other, because in a long enough time frame our solar system won't even exist anymore. All semblance of anything that anyone has ever done will be lost. When that happens, the universe IS exactly the same no matter what I do.

[mcg2]

It is true that from a scientific point of view, there is no purpose or meaning to anything. But the idea that everything can be revealed through science is itself unscientific because we are not sure whether we as humans even have the cognitive ability to comprehend the universe and nature as it exists independent of our limited perception. We could be like ants living in an anthill 3 inches off the shoulder of a highway. Those ants will never know what it is that they are living next to because they don't have the cognitive ability to know. We are the ants and reality is the highway. The few surviving hunter-gatherer cultures all have one thing in common: They see meaning and purpose in everything around them. And as they are fully incorporated into their respective ecosystems, they are participants in that meaning and purpose. As our ancestors adopted agriculture and civilization, their spiritual leaders took the meaning and purpose out of the natural world and consolidated it into a few human-like Gods who live in some otherworldly realm. As time went on, those few Gods became one God, and now some scientists like Richard Dawkins seek to take that one God who for so many encompasses meaning and purpose and turn it off completely. He wants people instead to create their own purpose and meaning through studying science or music or art. But as you point out, these pursuits are ultimately unfulfilling. We humans evolved under certain conditions. Our notion of meaning, purpose, morality, etc developed under those conditions and make little sense when taken and applied to circumstances that are as distant from those conditions as ours are today. For millions of years humans and the now extinct ancestors from which our species evolved lived in small tribal bands taking what we needed from the natural world. It was in these conditions that we developed our notion of meaning and morality. We are now trying to apply those notions to a world of mass industrial production, a world that depends not in seeing the natural world as having innate meaning and purpose, but seeing the natural world as being nothing but soulless resources for us to exploit for our own selfish ends. This is of course why religion was created to replace primitive animism in the first place. People cannot destroy their own land bases by converting it completely to human use unless they see it as dead lifeless matter that exists only for humans to use. Its hard for us to see much meaning and purpose in the natural world because we are so far removed from it. We spend so much time on these computers, we are even becoming too far removed from one another. But if you do wish to see purpose and meaning, my advice is to make an effort to find it in the world in which we evolved the notion of purpose and meaning in the first place, and that is the life that makes you possible. Because you can exist without churches, synagogues, and the Hadron Collider. But you cannot exist without abundant clean water, clean air, or your family or friends.

[lurkboi]

This post has been the most comforting one posted yet. Still, I don't understand how I am to find a meaning or purpose in anything when everything seems so meaningless and my endeavors seem so useless.

[mcg2]

Things seem so meaningless because we have moved farther and farther from the real world, the natural world, and now mostly engage with representations. We evolved in conditions where the only way we could communicate was through face to face communication-speech and body language. Now we mostly communicate through smartphones, books, TV, computers, all of which are surrogates and representations of the face to face communication we evolved to be able to talk to one another. Spirituality evolved as a way for us to communicate with non-human entities; other animals, plants, trees, rivers, etc. They were seen as providing for us and we saw ourselves as having a role in providing for them. Religion is all representation, all imagery. Instead of having a relationship with the plants who provide our food, we will instead have a relationship with Ceres, the ancient Roman Goddess of the harvest and who can directly help us with providing our food. Then along comes Christianity. And instead of praying to Ceres, we will pray to St. Anthony of Padua, the Patron Saint of harvests who cannot directly help us with providing our food, but as a representative of God, can intercede for us in having God help us. So now we have a relationship with a representative of a representative of a representative of the process of providing food, not through hunting and gathering which is what we evolved to do, but through clearing an area and all its ecological diversity and converting it to be used exclusively for human purposes, i.e., agriculture. Consider my roommate's dog, a Schnauzer. This dog was bred (artificial selection) explicitly to hunt rodents and to interact with other dogs, in particular German Shepherds. It spends the entire day in a climate controlled house pushing around a stuffed animal. It is clearly miserable and why? Because it is unable to engage in the life it was specifically bred to engage in. Instead of chasing real rodents, which is what it is genetically predisposed to do, it pushes around a stuffed animal, which it treats as a representation of a real rodent. And instead of interacting with other dogs, it interacts with us humans, representations and surrogates of those real dogs. If I could speak Schnauzer, I would ask this dog if it saw any meaning or purpose in life when it is deprived of living out the life it was evolved to live out. I'm sure the answer would be much the same as yours, and for the same reasons. My advice to you is that you should regain a relationship with the real world. Spend as much time in direct contact with other people, with sunsets, with the river and the natural world. Identify yourself as part of that world, not separate from it and develop deep relationships with those around you and try not to see everything in a nihilistic and hyper-rational Vulcan-like world view, because by doing so you're relinquishing part of what it means to be human. For further reading, I recommend: The Age of Wonder: How the Romantic Generation Discovered the Beauty and Terror of Science, by Richard Holmes A Language Older Than Words, by Derrick Jensen

[lurkboi]

∆ This makes a lot of sense. I never thought about our detachment from the "real world" as a society. As far as gaining a relationship with this part of the world, I can give it my best shot. Thanks for the additional reading.

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[dfountain62]

This depends entirely on *whom* you are referencing when you say something matters. Obviously inanimate objects don't care about anything so *to them* nothing matters, but you've made a lot of intrinsic value judgements just in writing this CMV, so clearly some things matter to you. I mean strictly speaking it is improbable to have the viewpoint that nothing matters and write this CMV. If nothing mattered you would be indifferent between all possible choices of actions at any given time. The fact that you wrote this in coherent English indicates an inherent value judgement in being understood. If nothing mattered then you would randomly type letters on the screen because you would be indifferent between being understood and not being understood and thus indifferent to the letters that you used as you typed. Moreover you would probably be dead if nothing mattered to you because you would be indifferent between staying safe and doing something dangerous. This is all to say clearly you value things, and to value something means it matters.

[lurkboi]

But what is necessarily the point of things mattering to me if those things have a 0% chance of maintaining existence in a long enough time frame? I feel that things matter to me only because it is hardwired into my brain as a means of self-preservation. That is different from those things actually having an inherent importance or meaning. Surely there are things that I value, but that does not mean that they are actually important, and even if the things that we value and strive for matter, what is the point if they are all only temporary? I am not trying to knock your response, it was honestly very well written, but I just don't think my heart is behind your point of view.

[dfountain62]

[STA-CITE]> That is different from those things actually having an inherent importance or meaning. [END-CITE]I'm going to be very pedantic here to make a point. Inanimate objects cant make value judgements and as such nothing in the universe can have 'inherent value'. This is different from saying that "things have no inherent value." What it is essentially saying is the concept of "inherent value/importance/mattering" doesn't make any sense. [STA-CITE]> what is the point if they are all only temporary? [END-CITE]Going off the above, this question doesn't make any sense. What is the point *relative to whom*? If you're talking about people 1000 years in the future, obviously what you do now will mean basically nothing. But this is equally arbitrary as saying to people 1000 years in the past nothing you do matters. Also all values are temporary. Anyone capable of making a value judgement dies, and with them dies any value judgements they had. So it makes no sense in another way to say, "why does it matter if it is temporary." All things that matter, only matter temporarily. You can't separate the two; it's an inherent property of value. Also I could turn this around and say what is the problem with something being temporary? Is it somehow worse than being permanent/irreversible? I certainly wouldn't want any pain I experience or cause to be permanent/irreversible for instance. [STA-CITE]> I feel that things matter to me only because it is hardwired into my brain as a means of self-preservation [END-CITE]What is wrong with this? I don't question why I like steamed asparagus for instance. All I care is that the electro-chemical reactions that occur are ones that my cells are conditioned to respond favorably too, and I interpret that as pleasure.

[lurkboi]

When you say, "I certainly wouldn't want any pain I experience or cause to be permanent/irreversible for instance." this is a point I will have to disagree with you on. I would rather live in an eternal hell than nothing at all. Perhaps you are correct that the concept of inherent meaning doesn't make any sense, but if that is the case, then why even live? Why does it matter if I live a long life or a short one, happy or miserable, successful or poor?

[dfountain62]

[STA-CITE]> this is a point I will have to disagree with you on. I would rather live in an eternal hell than nothing at all. [END-CITE]To each their own :) [STA-CITE]> Why does it matter if I live a long life or a short one, happy or miserable, successful or poor? [END-CITE]It matters because you probably value those different qualitative lifestyles differently and the one you value the most is the one you will go for.

[Raborn]

The only time you exist is now, but that future you will be "now" then. You understand that things you do now will affect future you. The only time you need meaning is when your alive. Doesn't much matter if there's any when your dead, because it won't mean shit to you. Find your meaning in the now and as far ahead as you can consider. You don't know when you'll die anyway, so just pretend you'll live until you're ready and make sure that happens. Get as much love as you can so when you go, it won't bother you.

[lurkboi]

But how does anything matter if I am going to die?

[Raborn]

It doesn't, but you're alive now. That's what I'm saying. The future never exists, only now does.

[LeBn]

How would anything matter if you weren't going to die? If life were infinite, it wouldn't somehow gain value or meaning. Nothing holds inherent value and everything is equally meaningless, and that applies whether we eventually die *or* we live forever. Chasing your tail looking for intrinsic value in any kind of existence will drive you mad because it doesn't exist, nor could it, as value is inherently subjective and decided upon by the individual. This is a good thing, because it gives a person free reign to *create* meaning by pursuing their own base desires. In *this* context, the finitude of life makes everything *you personally* value more meaningful, as it provides incentive to achieve your goals quickly before the chance to is lost forever. Of course there's no absolute imperative to follow your dreams, or do what you want to do, such a thing cannot exist. But, by definition, it is in your best interest to pursue your interests. In a way, your view is right, there *is* no objective meaning. The fact that we're all going to die eventually has nothing to do with that, however.

[PlatinumGoat75]

[STA-CITE]> This is a good thing, because it gives a person free reign to create meaning by pursuing their own base desires. [END-CITE]This response has never really resonated with me. How can you create your own meaning? It seems to me that any meaning you create would just end up being a diversion, a hobby to keep you busy. There's no real value behind any purpose you decide to give yourself. It's seems like your saying we should pretend our lives have importance, when they really don't. If I were to follow your advice, I think I would always know that I'm just pretending to have a purpose. I'd always be aware that my meaning is artificial, that its just a daydream I thought up to hide from the depressing fact that life has no importance.

[LeBn]

[STA-CITE]> It seems to me that any meaning you create would just end up being a diversion, a hobby to keep you busy [END-CITE]Well that's just it. we do what we want with our lives because that's what we want to do, searching for value or purpose is going to be fruitless because those ideas are meaningless. [STA-CITE]> It seems to me that any meaning you create would just end up being a diversion, a hobby to keep you busy [END-CITE]Well that's pretty much the way it is. But this is fine. We *all* live just to satisfy ourselves and do things that make us feel good. You only see a problem in it because you're convinced there's some higher calling we should be looking for as though what we're doing right now isn't enough.

[Chen19960615]

How would your meaning be anymore real if you didn't give it to yourself? Why would a meaning you assign to yourself be any less real than any other alternative? Why would you need to pretend? If someone pursued their dream of becoming a rock star, what would they be pretending about? Meaning in life isn't about importance. Many people are content with living with their family, and having some positive impact upon others. Do you think they would care if you told them that their family isn't important because they're nothing in the grand history of the universe? No; their love for their family feels real, and that's all that matters to them.

[lurkboi]

I find it impossible for me to create meaning for myself when I am temporary. How do I go about this?

[LeBn]

"meaning" in this context really just means doing what you naturally feel compelled to do. Why did you make this CMV? *Something* compelled you to; otherwise you wouldn't have. Why did you have breakfast this morning, *something* compelled you to; otherwise you wouldn't have. As living organisms, we have instilled in us certain compulsions, and everything anybody has ever done for any reason *ever* was done in order to satisfy one or more of them. From our most nuanced conceptions of morality, right down to our decisions on where to scratch ourselves, *everything* comes down to a means of satisfying some drive in one way or another. That's the closest thing to inherent meaning anybody is ever going to get, and in the relatively short time we're here, most people figure we might as well just roll with it.

[TBFProgrammer]

What you are dealing with is a recursive problem that lacks a base value. There is no answer, at least, no ultimate objective truth from which meaning stems. Instead, you must choose what you value in this world. Logic will not serve you here. Our values do not stem from logic. They stem from our emotions and instincts. You do have values, you just need to figure out what is important to you, what you would miss or feel wronged to lose or see fail. This serves as the base. (EDIT: caution, avoid choosing an -ism for this) From there, logical arguments can be made to attach value to pretty much everything. Just be careful. You will have multiple root values. Balancing these is the subject of ethical dilemmas. At least, that's how I see things now, having at one point dealt with the same manner of crisis.

[lurkboi]

I completely recognize everything you are saying as true; however, I don't see how me determining what is important to me matters as I am temporary as well. In the short term, there may be a point in my head, but I feel like it would still be lying to myself if I say those things matter in the grand scheme of things.

[TBFProgrammer]

[STA-CITE]> I feel like it would still be lying to myself if I say those things matter in the grand scheme of things. [END-CITE]In the grand scheme of things, not one thing matters. This we can agree on. That means everything has a value of zero from that frame of reference. In other words, the grand scheme of things has no more, and also no less, import than your personal life. However, when measuring from the frame of reference of your personal life, things suddenly have value.

[ajt1296]

Inherently, nothing has meaning. But if we give it meaning, it does. Surely, what you do as an individual won't have an impact on say, the end of the universe. But some of the decisions you make may ultimately create a large chain of cause and effect (butterfly effect) and have a considerable influence in the world over a period of time, or at the very least affect someone's life. And, if nothing inherently has meaning except the meaning we give it, then in the grand scheme of things, something like World War II or a donation to a charity may be more meaningful than the end of the universe, which humanity will likely never experience anyway.

[NeverQuiteEnough]

if you contribute to something that lasts forever, would that be more fun? I think so, so I study computer science. There are two things that need to happen. Peter Diamandis needs to mine an asteroid, which he is working on, and we need a 3d printer that can make itself. once we have that, mining all the asteroids close to the sun and setting up a dyson sphere is an iterative problem. the descendants of earth will enter the post scarcity epoch and we can send thinking machines or engineered life, whichever is better, to colonize other stars. from then on it is exponential growth and looking for answers to big problems like entropy. I figure that the legacy of earth has a pretty good shot of going infinite in that manner. perhaps our clade will never stop growing. It is an arbitrary goal that isn't any more meaningful than anything else, but it is grand and interesting. There is also a feeling of not wanting to be embarrassed, when the future looks into the past.

[workingbarbie]

I think you are looking at "life" being this single force that we are all, as one, subject to. Really though, life is extremely relative to each person that is alive. (You noted you do not believe in an afterlife, so I will argue based on the assumption that you are correct and there is no Heaven). The "grand scheme" of your life ends with your death. When you die, you will not have the consciousness to experience your legacy, you will simply cease to be. You will no longer have feelings or opinions or observations, you will not know how your family or friends feel, you won't see the outcome of your life choices, and most importantly, you won't worry about your legacy or the pointlessness of your life. You simply won't exist. One of the biggest lessons I've learned is that you should not worry about things you cannot change, and you cannot change anything after you die, therefor you should not worry about the world after you die. When you narrow the "grand scheme" down to your conscious life, your time becomes much more valuable (econ 101: the more scarce something is, the more valuable it becomes). Since happiness ends at death, along with all other consciousness, I would argue that the main point of life is to fill it with as much happiness as you can. You will have no idea what happens after you die (you should not worry about it), you can only worry about emotions you presently feel. Your time on earth is very valuable realtive to you as a person, and should be used to do whatever it is to make you happy. Does this mean that some people will murder others, because it makes them happy? Yes. Does that make their life unimportant, or meaningless? No, because they did what they did to make themselves happy relative to themselves. Suffering and strife is an unfortunate but inevitable part of life. Even if there was not a single more murder committed on earth, suffering and strife will continue in another form. I argue that the point of life is to negate that strife and suffering in your life as much as possible, with happiness. I think you need to find what makes you happy. Try new things, meet new people, travel to new lands, create new things... If you are having trouble finding joy in anything at all, then your problem might be depression. Fortunately, depression is more or less a treatable illness, and with professional help you will be better apt to experiencing happiness. TL;DR: You are temporary in comparison to the rest of the world, but you are the most meaningful and important person to yourself and you are not temporary relative to the time period you are alive. You should value your time because you will not have the consciousness to feel meaningless or temporary after you pass away. You should fill your life with happiness to negate the suffering you will inevitably feel. If you cannot find happiness anywhere, seek professional help.

[MikeyDeez]

Do you value the ability to judge "importance" and analyze your context in that "grand scheme"? Would you have no issue with losing your critical thinking abilities, if they don't matter? ....or would you prefer to keep them if you could?

[lurkboi]

I would prefer to keep them.

[MikeyDeez]

So why do you give more credence to "the big picture"? It seems to me that "The Big Picture" is a fabricatd concept and only exists in your head. Imagine a soldier fighting for the Confederate States of America...his idea of what "the big picture" is and was exists solely in his mind. In a lot of ways, that kind of ties into what /u/TBFProgrammer is saying when he asserts that the only "real" value in life lies in what an individual perceives in their own head. "The Big Picture" is just your mind's rationalization/prediction of your own concepts...but it doesn't exist outside of your head. I'm sure my perception of "The Big Picture" is nothing like yours...and humans living a thousand years form now writing a historical paper on our "big picture" probably won't judge it like you do today. "The Big Picture"; Your Big Picture is nothing more than a short-term temporary concept that only exists in your head anyways. So to me, it seems like "everything is important" is just as true as "nothing is important". Does that change your view at all?

[lurkboi]

If what you are saying is true, and the "Big Picture" in my head is a concept that doesn't exist then that only goes to show how little value there is in anything. If there is no rhyme or reason then what is the point? I'm trying to understand but I just don't yet.

[BaconCanada]

The point is that you do exist and will suffer and die if you don't actively seek to delay that process. The meaning for me, at least, is to enjoy the time I have and to try to reach a secure point of survival so that I can one day relax and enjoy most of the things I love then at my own leisure without pressure.

[PlatinumGoat75]

So the meaning of life is pleasure? That's not particularly inspiring.

[BaconCanada]

If you want to call it meaning, but kind of. I wouldn't, anyway, just my goal. So what if it isn't, anyway?

[PlatinumGoat75]

Well, personally, I find that saddening. I want to be inspired. It's disappointing to think that there may not be anything inspiring about life.

[[missing]]

[mikalaranda]

When you play an awesome video game with a single-player story mode, does the fact that your adventure will at some point end ever take away from your enjoyment when you are playing the game in the here and now? If no, then just imagine that life is a video game. That might answer your question of "why anyone should care if it's not permanent". [STA-CITE]> Perhaps every single blade of grass, moment in time, leaf in the wind is infact important. This is the point of view that I would like to adopt, but right now, it seems that it takes too much faith and not enough logic for me to take the step into this mindset. [END-CITE]Everything you see, hear, and feel in this game contributes to the experience, to the fun of it all. Why worry about what will happen when the game is over? Why worry about how your accomplishments in this game won't matter once you are done playing it? It's just a game, so don't take it so seriously.

[Exomnium]

[STA-CITE]> When you play an awesome video game with a single-player story mode, does the fact that your adventure will at some point end ever take away from your enjoyment when you are playing the game in the here and now? [END-CITE]How would you respond to the point that in the case of a video game once it is over I'll be able to cherish the memory of the experience even though the in-the-moment value is gone forever, whereas after the end of life there will be nothing to cherish and no me left to cherish it?

[lurkboi]

∆ This is certainly a viewpoint that I had not considered. Kind of a "Live in the moment" idea. While I do think that were I able to adopt this view it would solve my problems, I simply don't think it is possible for me to actually live in the moment like you suggest. I'll award you a delta for bringing up a viewpoint I had not considered, as you have given me a lot of thinking to do; however, if you can please elaborate because at first glance what you are suggesting still seems impossible.

[mistabojangles42]

It might be tempting to embrace the "live in the moment" philosophy, but if you're just looking to enjoy yourself, "in the moment", then you're just living a hedonistic lifestyle. That's not exactly purpose, or meaning. I'm sure all kinds of awful people Enjoy doing terrible things to others. Are we really going to say it's "meaningful" that they do such, because it was enjoyed? Or, consider this. Would you rather have two weeks to spend like you normally do, OR two weeks on an awesome vacation doing whatever you want BUT, at the end you lose all memories of it? Most people would rather have memories of the bland stuff. This is because, we are only able to live in the past. We can only reflect on what has already happened. So, in short. Live in the past. Everyone else does. But, consider the "meaning" that you're looking for. Maybe, rather than looking for it on this grand cosmic scale, we should be able to accept it on a personal level. And frankly, I don't think we're capable of rejecting personal meaning, being how we, as rational beings are constantly establishing it. At least, in relation to ourselves. Tl;dr Meaning isn't derived from joy. It's created, by rational entities. Usually in relation to us, on a personal scale. Also, I'd like to credit this youtube [video](http://youtu.be/SiJnCQuPiuo?t=53m21s) for summing up a lot of thoughts I have about meaning. I know it's from a religious debate, but I think you'll find the particular question they're asking to be informative to your viewpoint.

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[akhoe]

You should practice Buddhism. I suggest you read "How to Raise an Ox". Living in the moment isn't a viewpoint that you take. It is diligent practice. You get the initial practice by meditating. You learn how to do one thing, sit and breathe, with your entire being. Then you basically do that with every activity. Obviously this is very simplified, but it's a start.

[lurkboi]

∆ I'll give it a look, thanks. Didn't exactly change my view but you gave me a source for further research'

[Zombater]

Also, the belief in a lack of a duty or that nothing matters, is called nihilism and is frowned upon by the Indian religions. Hindus call it dharma, meaning duty.

[ethertrace]

I'm a fan of the Zen school myself because of the focus on "presence" (I have terrible episodic memory) and lack of emphasis on a lot of the spiritual woo. I recommend the book "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" by Shunryu Suzuki. Also, if you'd like to read memoir of a punk-turned-Buddhist, there's an interesting book called "Dharma Punx" by Noah Levine. I like it because it shows not only his process of study and integration, but also his way of blending what might initially seem to be contradictory philosophical outlooks to make new meaning.

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[mikalaranda]

Glad to hear my post helped, if even just a little bit. For sure, I can try to expand a bit more on the idea. Feel free to let me know if there is anything in particular you want me to elaborate on. The thinking behind my suggestion is that we only know about the here and now, and also that the here and now is temporary (as you have highlighted in your OP); therefore, people stand to lose nothing by simply taking life as it is, doing what makes them happiest and fulfilled, and not worrying about whether everything matters after they are gone and possibly forgotten. If you allow yourself to live your life in the way that makes you happiest, then at least you can say you had this happiness while you could have it. In contrast, if you prevent yourself from obtaining this happiness by worrying about whether this happiness does, or will ever, matter, you are leaving yourself with absolutely nothing. You mentioned in a part of your post that you were looking for logic and reason to help change your mind, so maybe think about it this way: does it make sense to guarantee yourself nothing, for fear that your gamble on obtaining *something* will result in you gaining nothing? Should I stop caring about my family, friends, work, hobbies, etc., which all make me truly glad to be alive, because it is possible that their impermanent nature means they do not matter? Or should I instead continue to cherish these things while I know they make me happy, regardless of whether there is any "meaning" to it *after* it is all said and done? Maybe a little bit unnecessary, but too coincidental for me to ignore: while typing this, I was listening to "Your Song" by Elton John, which contains the line "How wonderful life is while you're in the world". Somehow, I feel like this might capture the sentiment behind my post more than the words I have typed out. Perhaps give it a listen? Again, let me know if there is anything in particular you want me to elaborate on! I am curious to hear why you think it is *impossible* for you to live this way.

[lurkboi]

I guess I would say it is impossible because I don't think I'd be able to live in the moment and not have racing thoughts. An even harder question would be how does one truly "live in the moment" It isn't as if you can give me an instruction guide.

[ROFL_COPTER_EXTREME]

I have another viewpoint to consider, op, which is my personal viewpoint. I used to think along the same lines as you regarding the purpose of life. What I concluded was that life does not actually have a purpose (unless you are religious, but it apears you and me both aren't). Science does not give a reason for our existence, besides "you exist to make more of you, and you are the result of thousands of generations acting on this impulse". I find this actually quite liberating. I personally think that you should just live life according to what you want and what you think is right. The only purpose in living is the purpose you give it. If you want to hate life, go ahead because it doesn't matter. But you will have a much better time trying to make yourself happier. And you can do that in whichever way you want because it won't matter in the end. (unless it involves you hurting other people. I mainly mean if you are feeling like getting money or a job or a spouse is not important, don't do it even if it seems like theres huge societal pressure to do all those things.) Sorry for grammer/spelling/clarity issues, I typed this all on my shitty fake phone.

[lurkboi]

∆ You summed up how I feel quite nicely in such a short paragraph. You're right, I don't think I'll ever a meaning or reason for our existence. Perhaps I should try to look at this as less of a burden. I'll try to do what makes me happy, and thanks, it helps to see that there is someone out there who has felt the same way as I do now.

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