WMN: t3_2lwrsv_t1_clzhmou

[TITLE]

CMV: People keep dismissing TRP, but it's the best path to take for a man's self-improvement.

[FarOrAMess]

Hello everyone, I'll prefice by saying English isn't my main language, so I apologize for any misunderstanding, feel free to ask what did I mean by saying 'X'. I discovered TRP a few months ago. I believe it was on of the biggest shocks to my personal views on the world. All my life I suffered from lack of sexual/social success, I wasn't confident, I didn't know how to deal with people around me and I basically reverted to being a nice guy, which is something people & pop-culture advocates through advice, movies, selective presentation by the media and so forth. When I was introduced to the PUA community 2 years ago, and eventually TRP a few months ago, it was the first time in my life I was given helpful advice on how to become someone who can actually make it in today's society in terms of being social/sexual. Those communities taught me about confidence, staying true to myselfself, embracing my sexuality and most of all become the best version of myself and aim for the stars, in a way that is actually applicable to the real world, and not in the form of some cliched advice that people oblivious to those concepts could possibly grasp and implement. I do agree with a lot of statements regarding TRP making generalizations about women, to a point of de-humanizing them. But on the other hand, there is no other community that gives you genuine advice on how to become that successful person you always wanted to be and reach your goals in life, and I sincerely believe that someone who will ignore the MRA-oriented side of TRP and focus on the advice they give on self-improvement (as proven mostly true by people's 'Field Reports'), will prosper beyond his imagination and there's no competition in that field. The world is a harsh place full of mostly ego-centric people that will not reach out for people with that kind of weaknesses, and one must seek it out in places like TRP to have a chance of actually bettering theirselves. The reason I believe that is by looking at facts : Before being exposed to the PUA community and TRP : I had no courage to even talk to a girl I had interest in, was socially awkward and was made fun of most of my teenage years. This applies to a lot of men my age who you could see for a fact that didn't even know how to deal with those kind of issues and suddenly it's like they swallowed a magic pill. After : Learned to take the initiative and lead the interaction (as directly suggested by those communities), take responsibility for sexual escalation (which doing only half-assed while not being experienced always turned girls off), and finally lost my virginity. Also, I am generally much more confident, got rid of most of my depressive nature and people actually like to be around me way more than before. Change my view. _____

[august2023]

From my understanding you took aspects of TRP that you liked and removed aspects that you disliked. That seems normal. I think everyone is different and for some people TRP might work, like you but with every group there are always radical people.

[bazmeg]

TRP = PUA + bitter hate. The question is, why you need the later? The difference between PUA stuff and TRP is that a PUA feels genuinely grateful to the women he seduces while a redpiller is secretly hating all that and thing these women are skanky sluts and very immoral and bad. What is the point of the later? You can get the same results from sticking to the seduction/PUA stuff or even the more mainstream advices like Dr. Nerdlove as well.

[FarOrAMess]

It's definitely not the only difference, you make it seem much more shallow. As much as TRP can be sexist, it has some truths to it that applies to a certain group of women. Not the majority, but not as little as most of us would like to think. But the main difference IMO is routines vs. natural attractiveness, in terms of sexual dynamics.

[sharp7]

As someone who had a similar awkward -[STA-CITE]> cool transformation thanks to the PUA community there are two main problems. [END-CITE]The first is from what I've seen TRP on reddit is often retarded. I look at posts there and they are insane to extremely negative. When you go on actual PUA forums like RSD's forum you see posts like "is laughing at my own jokes that bad?" "how do I prevent someone from getting too attached" etc. Real topics. Instead of all the women-shittalk posts on redpill. When I was into it I used juggler's forum myself, a friend used RSD which was also decent. The other is its hard to sustain and some of the long term views are bad. The idea that you need to be constantly improving means you are kind of in a state of "I'm not good enough". This is EXTREMELY useful when in fact you are far from good enough, but can be mentally taxing. It was hard to constantly care about every little thing I said, every approach I didn't make or messed up etc and still give my 100% to school/career. Some of the views are pretty awkward. Basically they shun all introverted activities and at least back when I was into it night game was a bigger deal than day game (the former I generally dislike the latter I loved). It also kind of assumes talking to a random person is actually worth it. After awhile it felt like most people were rather boring, but the skill to be able to talk to a stranger is really useful for you do run into that one interesting person. I pretty much have no fear of embarrassment anymore, I get a huge kick out of very loudly (my voice is just always accidentally very loud) talking about embarrassing stories or some of the dorkier stuff I've done. Some of the pua community sort of supports this in a be proud of who you are way, but some of it is very restricting "you have to be outgoing all the time, don't waste time on nerdy hobbies, don't hang out with nerds hang out with cool people, why aren't you doing more sets meeting more women" etc. Basically its useful as fuck and absolutely amazing for "catching up" or "crash course" on socializing and being more confident and general self improvement. But it has its limits and negative aspects as well and after awhile seems like you go from one kind of slavery to another where you value things like "be alpha fuck bitches get huge" a bit too much. Balance I guess is really the answer.

[reallybloodylongname]

TRP has a HUGE perception bias. A large amount of the observations are self-fulfilling. A large amount of posters are angry/grieving and therefore are not the most...clear-headed. However there is still a reasonable amount of good advice - if you can sift it from the chaff. I believe in barking, barking has always protected me, barking will ensure my safety. - a dog. One real red pill, that everyone should swallow, is that humans are animals, and therefore biased towards people with attractive physical attributes, even when they know they should not be. Another is that you cannot assume that a romantic partner will put you before themselves in every (or any) interaction. another is that some people will not be attracted to you. TRP distils everything down to a power struggle, and aims to be the most powerful in each interaction. A decisions made by you is better than any made by someone else. TRP seems to be the response to the idea that women should aggressively use their sexuality to bargain for a "better" life partner, marrying up etc. Naturally TRP seeks to counter this, dismissing women to just their sexuality. As a counter it works Exceptionally well. It however also has large collateral damage. some of what the red pill says, is self fulfilling; if you have superficial relationships, and don't be surprised that they flake away. It preaches that you are only as good as your perceived value, and that people will take advantage of kindness. It also preaches that a guy should never be subservient to a girl. while this may encourage doormats to have some self respect, it also removes respect for women as logical humans. In the context of a work in progress, this might be palatable. contrast with "you deserve better than him" TRP is ruthlessly efficient with your dating demands also clears out a large suite of women who want a more substantial relationship, or have emotional issues, and collects the remainder who can broadly be divided into two camps, those who just want to fuck, and those who have so little self value that they attempt to have a relationship by using sex as a bargaining chip. Compare with a pickup artist looking to fuck and fuck off. Those who want a fuck-buddy wont care, and those who want a relationship will get burned. TRP is pseudo-science, and like most pseudo-science, it is based in fact, and then extrapolates to the ridiculous. Unfortunately they have also perfected the salesmans agreement close, get you agreeing with basic statements, then move into the dotty, and watch as the sucker keeps nodding his head in agreement. TRP is a crutch for people who want an excuse as to why their relationships fail, introspection is replaced by dogma. The answers might still be correct, but personal responsibility to a relationship is avoided. Failing to put effort into a relationship is replaced with "Bitches only seek 'social+material value'" this puts the blame of being lazy on "a woman's instinct" rather than the less palatable realisation that they took the relationship for granted. This leaves the red piller unaware of his failing, but still gets the correct response - more effort is put into maintaining themselves. The success found in following this advice will reaffirm the dogma, and gently push them down the rabbit hole. TRP is a defence mechanism that assumes the worst in their partners in a bid to reduce their vulnerability. TRP preaches that women should not be put on a pedestal, and discourages obsession over one person. while this prevents the quite frightening professions of "love" from total strangers, and the grieving over the loss of the delusion, TRP continues along this line of thought, cutting out any hope for a complex fulfilling relationship by reducing female value to the sum of her attractiveness and the mental and emotional capabilities of a stunted 12 year old. "the most responsible teenager in the house" TRP also promotes a man of purpose, while this is useful to suggest to a passive rider, TRP fails to acknowledge that having passions is desirable, and that being busy prevents pillers from swamping someone you barely know with so much enthusiasm they are scared you escaped from an institution. and simply focuses on the fact that it is a convenient excuse to give women. TRP teaches "abundance frame," the idea that a piller should pretend that he has lots of women vying for his attentions, and that women are natively attracted to men who have already been "judged worthy" by other women, ignoring entirely the fact that the piller may have previously allowed himself to fall "in love" with some idealised imagined version of a woman he has just met, and this "abundance frame" has just prevented the other action. TRP makes use of the fact that, if you are making the decisions about your life, and working on improving your "perceived value" it is very difficult to be a man-child simultaneously. TL;DR TRP is a crutch for man-children to grow up, and get laid more, mostly by stopping the piller from cock-blocking himself.

[MontiBurns]

I've also read some PUA stuff and agreed with the basic premise/social strategies you talked about, but the end goals and worldviews for many users are the concern for me. If you have the maturity and moral compass (for lack of a better term) to use it without falling into the pithole of womanizer, fine. But it's important to take everything you read on those sites with a grain of salt, and I wouldn't recommend exposing a highschooler to TPR or the PUA community because they could be too easily influenced.

[FarOrAMess]

It's easier said than done. For someone who comes from an emotionally vulnerable place and the lack of knowing better, who is there to tell me I should take these with a grain of salt? Especially when they give you straight evidence of how it works (even if it's just selective perspective in the works). I'm lucky to not being completely ignorant to the world around me, otherwise I could end up an over-influenced by those places and become a misogynistic womanizer, because they do such a great job at presenting them in positive light.

[sharp7]

The womanizing part is just completely optional from the positive parts of the communities is what I think MontiBurns was trying to say and its important to separate the positive and negative beliefs in any community. You can say "All women are lying scum bags!" or you could say "people in general aren't honest and you shouldn't put too much trust in anyone." Sometimes TRP is just... too mad.

[FarOrAMess]

It's true, but again, I'm referring to people like me who were almost cimpletely obscure to the concepts of intergender dynamics and honestly don't have a mental compass so to speak, to help them distinguish between the "good" and "bad".

[sharp7]

You just have to go in with an open mind and make sure you research multiple opinions. After actually interacting with a lot of people you'll realize for yourself how people and women really are. But if you ONLY read one type of thing, lets say anti woman stuff, you might get brainwashed. Just realize anything you read could be wrong. Try beliefs out and if they actually match up with a large amount of real life experience and the belief is useful keep it. If the belief only hurts you, even just philosophically(i can't imagine living in a world where you think everyone is a lying scum bag whore is fun), then drop it.

[FarOrAMess]

That's fine, but to remain on topic, did you notice there isn't a community similar to TRP/PUA that would suggest that advice? Also, how do you support your view? Do you have a success story behind it?

[sharp7]

Are you saying PUA/TRP wouldn't say something like "have an open mind don't trust anything you read?". I guess so but thats like almost all books. Few books are going to start with "Don't trust anything you read... except what I'm about to tell you." And I guess I do have a success story. I got into it at the end of high school and it made a HUGE difference I quite literally had no idea how to interact with girls and had no friends in my highschool period. I stuck with it until sophomore year of college when I was basically like "fuck it, gotta focus on school/career not being super amazing best conversationalist constantly making new friends 24/7 guy". But the general skills stuck. I can't remember the last time I actually felt embarrassed. I say what ever I want to say with no fucks given even if it makes me look hilariously bad (actually I LOVE telling people embarrassing stories). Like the community basically forced you so outside your comfort zone, makes you work so hard and constantly confront your fears, often by doing really stupid embarrassing stuff, that even after you leave that confidence stays. Its like when you train by doing absolutely ridiculous things normal conversation is super easy. Also by interacting with SO MANY strangers you realize fuck anyone's opinion. If someone thinks I'm lame cause I did LARP in college I'll just go talk to someone else.

[FarOrAMess]

What's LARP? Also can you elaborate on what led you to think it's the right way to go? Did you just decide it on a whim?

[sharp7]

Was just browsing the web, saw some random link somewhere about how to talk to girls. Clicked it, it was okay, but there were some other links, clicked those, eventually got to stuff that seemed useful. Read The Game, which is great because it really shows the pluses and minuses, a lot of the characters have unhappy endings. Juggler is mentioned in The Game, look up his website, go on a bunch of PUA websites. Some advice is decent some is meh, but in general I learn a lot and most importantly get the motivation to actually start doing things out of my comfort zone. Its especially nice because you can go try stuff, like talking to a stranger, then go back to the forums and make a post about it, get feed back, high fives, and support if I fucked up. Actually I don't think I posted that many actual stories, but I commented a lot, and reading other people's stories, especially when you are familiar with their user name and see their progress is great for learning and really motivational.

[FarOrAMess]

The PUA community is in a way more problematic than TRP, in the way that the self-improvement that it promotes is based on routines and forced perspectives, and none of it becomes natural. It promotes women and the sex they may be willing to give you being the prize to be won over. It's not self improvement as much as it just creates a fake PUA alter-ego that has to say and do the right thing at the right time and if he didn't get sex = he lost. It puts so much pressure on you it's unbelievable.

[[missing]]

[Casus125]

[STA-CITE]> I discovered TRP a few months ago. I believe it was on of the biggest shocks to my personal views on the world. All my life I suffered from lack of sexual/social success, I wasn't confident, I didn't know how to deal with people around me and I basically reverted to being a nice guy, which is something people & pop-culture advocates through advice, movies, selective presentation by the media and so forth. [END-CITE]I think this is the biggest lie that that community tells. Gleaning information from entertainment is a horribly stupid idea. Watching movies and TV shows and thinking "That's how I'm supposed to act." is the problem. It's a failure of parents and peers, hell of probably society. Of course they don't work! It's fiction! [STA-CITE]> When I was introduced to the PUA community 2 years ago, and eventually TRP a few months ago, it was the first time in my life I was given helpful advice on how to become someone who can actually make it in today's society in terms of being social/sexual. [END-CITE]I could take this line, and replace with any number of self-help seminars / books / lecturers. The sad fact is that many people go through life with very poor ideas on how to socially interact, especially with the opposite sex. Go check out /r/askmen or /r/askwomen, full of people who are just poorly informed or outright clueless about things. [STA-CITE]> But on the other hand, there is no other community that gives you genuine advice on how to become that successful person you always wanted to be and reach your goals in life, and I sincerely believe that someone who will ignore the MRA-oriented side of TRP and focus on the advice they give on self-improvement (as proven mostly true by people's 'Field Reports'), will prosper beyond his imagination and there's no competition in that field. [END-CITE]Yeah but here's the deal: The 'genuine' advice they give is about as generic and time tested as it can get. * Be confident * Believe in yourself Worst, they try to tie it all up into some pseudo-sciencey bullshit tied to 'evolutionary psychology'. (A field regularly lambasted for goal-posting and arbitrary measures) It's not that the advice they give is bad, it's just old...and stolen (or re-purposed, if you prefer). It's not original or new, it's not some grand epiphany. It's the same tired old self-help advice wrapped in a different package. [STA-CITE]> But on the other hand, there is no other community that gives you genuine advice on how to become that successful person you always wanted to be and reach your goals in life [END-CITE]I'll give you one right now: The Military. Hell I'll give you two: Competitive Sports. [STA-CITE]> I had no courage to even talk to a girl I had interest in, was socially awkward and was made fun of most of my teenage years. This applies to a lot of men my age who you could see for a fact that didn't even know how to deal with those kind of issues and suddenly it's like they swallowed a magic pill. [END-CITE]A community of supporting people all collaborating towards a common goal with an emphasis on personal achievement? Of course it feels like a magic pill. [STA-CITE]> After : Learned to take the initiative and lead the interaction (as directly suggested by those communities), take responsibility for sexual escalation (which doing only half-assed while not being experienced always turned girls off), and finally lost my virginity. Also, I am generally much more confident, got rid of most of my depressive nature and people actually like to be around me way more than before. [END-CITE]But it's no different than a college fraternity, or an after school activity club, or the military, or competing in team sports, or anything else. It's great that you finally found something that helped you grow up a bit. But there's nothing magical or special about TRP/PUA communities. They don't have anything unique or special about their advice, or their methods. Hell I would argue it's especially limiting, since the primary drive and focus of those communities is basically sexual conquest. Many make it their whole life, eschewing deeper relationships and focusing on numbers. It seems glamorous when your younger, but man...nobody thinks the 40 year old hanging out at the college night club hitting on drunk girls is cool. And that's where TRP/PUA takes you, if you follow it part and parcel. Now you can cherry pick, like many do. But what are you cherry picking? * Be confident * Believe in yourself Maybe throw in: * Take some initiative But those aren't unique to that community. I could take your entire post, and replace it with [Tony Robbins](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Robbins) or shit, [Any of these mother fuckers](http://motivationgrid.com/top-motivational-speakers/) or [any of these books](https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/self-help) and it would read largely the same. That's the reason for the broad dismissal of TRP and the PUA community. They're nothing special, and worse, they have a very thick air of misogyny and toxicity around them. You can get the same advice from other sources, get the same results.

[FarOrAMess]

I'm on mobile so i will only address your point about the military and fraternities having the same effect : 1. I've been in the army for 4 years, 3 of those as an officer. It helped my process in a way but definitely didn't solve my problems, since it didn't try, which leads me to my 2nd point. 2. You address those enivronments as a solution, but those positive effects that may help that process of self improvement are only a possible byproduct of the thongs you go through in there, and they're definitely not designated to have those effects on you, unlike TRP/PUA communities that that is their sole purpose.

[nmhunate]

How does one go from private to second lieutenant in a year?

[FarOrAMess]

In the IDF you can become an officer in a minimal time of service, depending on your background and what path did you take once enlisted. I became an officer in 14 months of service, which is a little shorter than average time in IDF terms to become an officer.

[nmhunate]

Were you like a... Officer candidate while enlisted? Or does any joe that enlists have acces to the same pathway as you?

[FarOrAMess]

It's personal stats based on school grades and basic pre-enlistment tests that give you the opportunity to qualify for this track of courses. It's called 'destined officers' track' in literal translation from Hebrew.

[Casus125]

[STA-CITE]> I've been in the army for 4 years, 3 of those as an officer. It helped my process in a way but definitely didn't solve my problems, since it didn't try, which leads me to my 2nd point. [END-CITE]I'm really stretching to believe that being in the Army, and especially being an Officer has not helped your self-confidence problems. Discipline, initiative, physical fitness, and self-confidence are all pretty universal traits to success, and indeed, things that TRP/PUA advocate. So the military didn't strictly tell you to go talk to girls, what was so hard about figuring that out though? [STA-CITE]> You address those enivronments as a solution, but those positive effects that may help that process of self improvement are only a possible byproduct of the thongs you go through in there, and they're definitely not designated to have those effects on you, unlike TRP/PUA communities that that is their sole purpose. [END-CITE]If you had asked your peers instead of going to the TRP, do you think you would have ever changed? You are surrounded by a support group who you should feel confident asking questions to. What is so different from the Wardroom and TRP? Yes a Fraternity may not be explicitly about helping you get laid, but the social interactions and support structure built around it makes it a hell of a lot easier. TRP/PUA are essentially self-help seminars with a strong emphasis/narrow focus, on getting laid. I strongly argue against calling it the path to take for "Male Self-Improvement" because it is extremely limited, horribly biased, and filled with a lot of really awful advice for anything beyond their focus. [STA-CITE]> After : Learned to take the initiative and lead the interaction (as directly suggested by those communities), take responsibility for sexual escalation (which doing only half-assed while not being experienced always turned girls off), and finally lost my virginity. Also, I am generally much more confident, got rid of most of my depressive nature and people actually like to be around me way more than before. [END-CITE]The only thing there I see that the Army didn't teach you is taking responsibility for sexual escalation. But I could told you that, any of your fellow soldiers could have told you that.

[FarOrAMess]

[STA-CITE]>I'm really stretching to believe that being in the Army, and especially being an Officer has not helped your self-confidence problems. Discipline, initiative, physical fitness, and self-confidence are all pretty universal traits to success, and indeed, things that TRP/PUA advocate. So the military didn't strictly tell you to go talk to girls, what was so hard about figuring that out though? [END-CITE]Again, people put it in a way that as long as you know what traits you need to have, you already know how to get there. You don't just go to an inconfident men with personal issues caused by a long history with no success to build up his confidence and tell me "you should be confident", that's just mocking him as if he didn't know that's what he's lacking. TRP will listen to your long ass personal story, understand your problems, will give you solutions with elaborative explanations, refer you to books/articles about it and help you all along the way up until the point of destination where they'll cheer for you. That's nothing like the army, which like most of the rest of society, will mock and judge you for your weakness (even if you're of superior professional status, like an officer in front of troops), and will definitely not help you in any of those ways I mentioned that TRP does, but at best in the way that you do which is stating the obvious. [STA-CITE]>If you had asked your peers instead of going to the TRP, do you think you would have ever changed? [END-CITE]First of all, I did and it didn't help. Secondly, a personal circle of friends is not an alternative solution to TRP/PUA, as peopld come from different backgrounds. [STA-CITE]>You are surrounded by a support group who you should feel confident asking questions to. What is so different from the Wardroom and TRP? [END-CITE]Because it's not anonymous and people with low self-esteem already had it hard by recognizing the problem and deciding to act it. Now they need to go to their best friends and tell them they are an emotional wreck and ask for help? You speak like you have no idea of the tendency of introverted people to keep those problems far away from their friends or anyone that knows them for that matter. [STA-CITE]>Yes a Fraternity may not be explicitly about helping you get laid, but the social interactions and support structure built around it makes it a hell of a lot easier. [END-CITE]It still doesn't contradict my view. [STA-CITE]>TRP/PUA are essentially self-help seminars with a strong emphasis/narrow focus, on getting laid. [END-CITE]As a beginner, it's all I wanted, and until TRP no one told me sex shouldn't be the goal, but a byproduct of the self-improvement you should aim for. [STA-CITE]>I strongly argue against calling it the path to take for "Male Self-Improvement" because it is extremely limited, horribly biased, and filled with a lot of really awful advice for anything beyond their focus. [END-CITE]Then change my view and give me a society that doesn't have that biased charge and allegedly awful advice, while still promoting this kind of effective methods of self improvement. [STA-CITE]>The only thing there I see that the Army didn't teach you is taking responsibility for sexual escalation. But I could told you that, any of your fellow soldiers could have told you that. [END-CITE]Right, but I wouldn't bump into you on my way looking for a solution to self improvement. Trusting fellow soldiers as an officer to help you with confidence and girl issues is shooting yourself in the foot in today's judgemental society, and especially in a respect-driven environment like the army. I did try to get help from my fellas, only to get obvious and superficial advice at first, and later on total disrespect.

[Casus125]

[STA-CITE]> Again, people put it in a way that as long as you know what traits you need to have, you already know how to get there. You don't just go to an inconfident men with personal issues caused by a long history with no success to build up his confidence and tell me "you should be confident", that's just mocking him as if he didn't know that's what he's lacking. [END-CITE]It's not "knowing what traits you need to have". It's "these were traits you were lacking, and then you gained them." I was anti-social, shy, afraid of talking to girls, etc. all throughout high school because of a bunch of silly insecurities. Boot camp changed everything for me. Made me realize that a lot of shit just doesn't matter. That I WAS capable of doing more. That I was pretty damn awesome. I was instilled a sense of purpose, and filled with a confidence that I was capable of anything. [STA-CITE]> TRP will listen to your long ass personal story, understand your problems, will give you solutions with elaborative explanations, refer you to books/articles about it and help you all along the way up until the point of destination where they'll cheer for you. [END-CITE]Friends, family, fraternities, etc. all do that too. There is nothing unique about that. NOTHING. [STA-CITE]> That's nothing like the army, which like most of the rest of society, will mock and judge you for your weakness (even if you're of superior professional status, like an officer in front of troops), and will definitely not help you in any of those ways I mentioned that TRP does, but at best in the way that you do which is stating the obvious. [END-CITE]That's just your same insecurities cropping up. Afraid to ask people face to face. You found comfort in anonymity, but that doesn't make it the "best" or even the most efficient. I asked my roommate in my school, who frequently hooked up with women, what he did. I was not ashamed, or afraid, to ask him for help. Because I was taught that there is no shame in asking a question I didn't know the answer too. I told him I was super dorky in high school, and he didn't mock me, or judge me. You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder about talking to people face to face, and I think that's going to prove a real problem in trying to change your view on this. [STA-CITE]> First of all, I did and it didn't help. Secondly, a personal circle of friends is not an alternative solution to TRP/PUA, as peopld come from different backgrounds. [END-CITE]I didn't realize all of your friends, especially in the Army, all came from the same place as you. [STA-CITE]> Because it's not anonymous and people with low self-esteem already had it hard by recognizing the problem and deciding to act it. [END-CITE]You may as well change your view to "TRP/PUA is great if you wish to remain anonymous and receive advice on how to have sex." because that what it keeps coming down to. [STA-CITE]> Now they need to go to their best friends and tell them they are an emotional wreck and ask for help? [END-CITE]Yeah. Exactly. That's what you're *supposed* to do. What the fuck are friends for if not for help? [STA-CITE]> You speak like you have no idea of the tendency of introverted people to keep those problems far away from their friends or anyone that knows them for that matter. [END-CITE]Oh I know exactly what you're referring to, I just got over my fear of talking to people apparently a lot easier than you did. [STA-CITE]> It still doesn't contradict my view. [END-CITE]It's not supposed to contradict it, it's to illustrate that there is nothing unique, special, or ideal about TRP/PUA. It's to show you that there multitudes of ways to find support, camaraderie, and advice. Plenty of young men have had just as deep, and just as profound personal discoveries about people and relationships through College Fraternities, the Military, Sports, etc. [STA-CITE]> Then change my view and give me a society that doesn't have that biased charge and allegedly awful advice, while still promoting this kind of effective methods of self improvement. [END-CITE]I have given you multiple examples to illustrate that TRP/PUA have not reinvented the wheel. It worked for you, super duper. Joining the Navy and talking to people worked for me. Should I post a CMV that joining the military and talking to people is the best path to male self-improvement? How about /r/askmen ? How about www.meetup.com ? How about a college fraternity? How about your fellow officers? [STA-CITE]> Right, but I wouldn't bump into you on my way looking for a solution to self improvement. [END-CITE]How do you know? You're still so caught up in your insecurities and looking like a fool in front of a person that you're too afraid to talk to somebody. You have this security blanket of anonymity on reddit, and you're now perfectly content to avoid talking to people face to face unless you absolutely want or need to. [STA-CITE]> Trusting fellow soldiers as an officer to help you with confidence and girl issues is shooting yourself in the foot in today's judgemental society, and especially in a respect-driven environment like the army. [END-CITE]I trusted my fellow sailors to help me with confidence and girl issues and received nothing but support. [STA-CITE]> I did try to get help from my fellas, only to get obvious and superficial advice at first, and later on total disrespect. [END-CITE]I'm beginning to suspect this may have more to do with your attitude with personal interactions than anything else. You consistently reinforce and have a negative attitude whenever somebody brings up talking to people face to face as an alternative to TRP/PUA in this thread. I can't change your view that remaining anonymous and receiving advice is easier for you than it is for somebody else. All I can do is illustrate that those communities have nothing original to contribute to this problem, and that there are a plethora of other viable ways to ask people for help and support when it comes to developing relationships.

[FarOrAMess]

∆ I'm giving you a delta since you opened my mind to just how narrow-minded I was towards the internet being the best knowledge base, rather than personal interactions and human connection. I never said TRP was anything innovative, but nonetheless I didn't realize anonymity isn't necessarily a better solution, since I looked at it from my own perspective. I still believe if someone was to look for a great load of information about self-improvement, TRP contains the most relevant and helpful content if you know how to distinguish between the radicals and the non-radical ones. Thank you.

[DeltaBot]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Casus125. ^[[History](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/Casus125)] ^[[Wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltabot)][[Code](https://github.com/alexames/DeltaBot)][[Subreddit](http://www.reddit.com/r/DeltaBot/)]

[insurrecto]

Telling a man to lose weight, go to the gym, wear nicer clothes, be more outgoing, and politely approach women in public is not revolutionary. People are attracted to good looking people who are funny and outgoing. This is just common sense. If a person needs to go to TRP to "discover" this, then I wonder if they have lived their whole life in a cave. The problems with TRP are the following: * it teaches misogyny * it teaches men to objectify women * it teaches that men should not be friends with women * it teaches men to pursue women only for casual sex. Long-term relationships and marriage are discouraged. * it teaches men to act like narcissistic psychopaths. TRP teaches that women are attracted to psychopaths. Some women might be attracted to psychopathic traits, but that does not mean that all women are attracted to psychopathic traits. Also, do you think that it's a good idea to be in a relationship with a woman who is attracted psychopathic traits that are associated with criminal behavior (psychopaths are more likely to be criminals).

[Cyralea]

[STA-CITE]>it teaches misogyny it teaches men to objectify women it teaches that men should not be friends with women it teaches men to pursue women only for casual sex. Long-term relationships and marriage are discouraged. [END-CITE]Do you feel these are a problem because they are ineffective, or because they are immoral?

[insurrecto]

Immoral

[Cyralea]

Can you understand the viewpoint of someone who has never had success in the past then? If someone were to provide real, actionable advice that works, can you not see how that would appeal to someone without past success?

[insurrecto]

I can understand that TRP is attractive to men who have had little or no success with women. I just with that OP and other men like him would find self-improvement groups that had better morals.

[FarOrAMess]

You present it as uf TRP gives you these advice in the form of obvious short sentences. They actually write & direct you to comprehensive guides that will help you have the reqired pre-knowledge after it worked out for them first. The "what to do" is common sense, the "how to" is far from it.

[insurrecto]

TRP is not the only movement that focuses on self improvement. Maybe you can find another movement that has better morals?

[IAmAN00bie]

If you ignore the "dehumanizing women and treating them like dogs" part of TRP, then you're not really following TRP. "Be yourself", "work out", "self-improvement"... are all just meaningless platitudes that any self-help group will tell you. The entire underlying view of TRP is learning about "the true nature of women", which is absolutely a misogynist view. There are hundreds and hundreds of examples of TRP advocating for sexist views against women. It is literally ingrained in the ideology. If you do not ascribe to those beliefs, then you haven't "taken the red pill." You are not a Red Piller. You are not following the "red pill path."

[tusko01]

[STA-CITE]>"Be yourself", "work out", "self-improvement"... are all just meaningless platitudes that any self-help group will tell you. The entire underlying view of TRP is learning about "the true nature of women", which is absolutely a misogynist view. There are hundreds and hundreds of examples of TRP advocating for sexist views against women. It is literally ingrained in the ideology [END-CITE]yes. the entire viewpoint is that women are sub-species that require intensive behavioural conditioning

[elliptibang]

Like most generally awful things, TRP is not *all* bad. It's packed with legitimately useful advice, like "Attend to your self-image!" and "Be more assertive!" But that kind of thing is nothing new or special. Pick up (no pun intended) virtually any book shelved in the self-help section of your local B&N and you will see that the red pillers are far from the only ones who've figured out that (for example) you have to learn to enjoy your own company before you can expect to attract the company of others. What actually sets TRP apart are precisely those aspects of the community you've asked us to disregard: a problematic conception of sexual partnership, a narrow emphasis on a small handful of superficial, highly questionable life goals, and a lot of shallow, borderline sociopathic views on social interaction in general. If you take those things out of the picture, all you're left with is a modest assemblage of banal platitudes. The fact that it works for you is no evidence that the "movement" is a good thing in general. Religion helps a lot of people in exactly the same way, but we generally don't regard Alcoholics Anonymous as evidence in favor of the truth of the Bible. Sometimes it isn't enough just to point out that something "works" in some limited way.

[FarOrAMess]

As much as I sincerely agree with you, my view is addressing the lack of an alternative for people like me who don't know any better. Those are the first places that knew exactly where I come from and tried to give me a direction to better myself, rather than judge me as a weakling and deny my potential, like 99% of people I engaged outside my PC monitor.

[EdmoundDantes]

I disagree that their is no alternative. Most of the TRP advice (get in shape! be confident! smile! Ask!) is pretty mainstream advice. And also [STA-CITE]>judge me as a weakling and deny my potential [END-CITE]Are you sure TRP doesn't do this too? Are you not starting from the position of the beta, envious of the alphas? Are you not chasing that image? Just because they don't go "fuck off" doesn't mean they don't judge

[elliptibang]

So it works for you (to some extent) and isn't *all* bad. How do you get from there to the position that it's the "best path"? What I'm suggesting is that you should continue looking for a *better* path, instead of settling for a worldview that is deeply flawed by your own admission.

[sharp7]

Its tough if you haven't gone in depth in both but their is are subtle but important differences between PUA communities and self help books etc. I can't accurately describe the difference, but generally self help books are horrifically less effective, and are very generic, while PUA material is very specific with entire schedules, activities in depth theories and guides on all sorts of social interaction stuff in order to improve yourself. There is also a huge difference in drive, PUA communities are just extremely obsessive which is pretty much needed in the short term if you are very behind socially and is really really crucial to get yourself out of the pit. Although later the obsessiveness becomes a bit too much, but the community still does its job of essentially being a crash course. I mean these are just guesses as to why self help stuff just doesn't feel as effective, its really a vibe thing that you can only understand if you've been in the PUA community and also tried regular self help. Another aspect is just that self help books are way more profit driven and feel scummier. Some PUA crap is too, obviously, but the open forums and such aren't and that's where the best part of it is.

[FarOrAMess]

My point exactly. I always look for better place, that's how I became aware of TRP two years after discovering the PUA community - I'm always searching.

[Cyralea]

Do you genuinely believe that the less palatable parts of TRP are less effective than the positive parts? Honest question.

[elliptibang]

You'll have to define "effective" for me and give me a specific example or two, but I suspect that your question misses the point. Many forms of abuse, manipulation, and deception might be described as "effective," depending on what your goal is and whether or not you're a psychopath.

[Cyralea]

Effective, as in, conducive towards achieving a desired result. I'll use two examples just for clarity: "Be assertive" as the positive one, and "Treat women like children" as the negative. I'm not asking for any moral judgements, only if you consider them effective or not.

[elliptibang]

That doesn't sound like a very effective way to form the basis of a healthy and fulfilling relationship with another human being. It might be an effective way to convince an impressionable, emotionally vulnerable person to sleep with you, but so's rohypnol. What's your point? In what fucked up universe can moral considerations be treated as irrelevant to the question of how best to interact with other people?

[Cyralea]

I never stated that moral considerations were invalid, only that I wanted your opinion on effectiveness. A common complaint against TRP is that it only works on vulnerable women. Yet there are many people who have tried it reporting that it works remarkably well with all women, and men to a degree. What do you make of that?

[elliptibang]

First, are you seriously asking me what I make of the fact that some anonymous "pick up artists" on the internet have claimed that no woman can resist them? Secondly, what difference would it even make if they were right?

[Cyralea]

If they're right, then it means that it will draw in people looking to achieve relationship success with women. Just an idea you may not have considered.

[togtogtog]

[STA-CITE]> not being experienced always turned girls off [END-CITE]That just isn't true. You could add a *sometimes* in there, and then that would read fine.

[sittinginabaralone]

But see, adding a *sometimes* doesn't help anyone but people who get offended by generalizations. If men believe that only *some* women do this or that and everything in between, it opens too many doors for excuses and mistakes. I don't know much about TRP, but I know they believe in assuming all women are prone to the same behavior under similar circumstances. I don't see the harm in that assumption.

[FarOrAMess]

Definitely. Women who can genuinely respect men who are sexually inexperienced are either sexually unexperienced theirselves, or just so rare that those communities define them as 'unicorns'. As a general statement, the majority of women are intolerant towards sexual inexperience and I should definitely not volunteer any sort of information about it if I'm looking for casual sex or even a life partner.

[AliceHouse]

[STA-CITE]> As a general statement, the majority of women are intolerant towards sexual inexperience [END-CITE]Why would you think that? I think as a general statement, women far, far, far, far prefer someone who is *open* and *honest*. If you have to lie about yourself, then you might be doing something wrong.

[FarOrAMess]

As much as I believe in honesty, if you can show me one case of a sexually experienced girl not getting turned off by a man who told them he is a virgin, I'll freaking pay you. No girl wants full disclosure of personality, if there's not even a little bit of mystery to their man, they will lose interest to some degree. Some things are better left unsaid.

[AliceHouse]

Here, [try this](http://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/wiki/virgin). Some do, some don't. Women can't be categorized, especially not by TRP standards. You stick with them, you'll only wind up with a red pill kind of girl. Which might be fine for you, but you're missing out. Some things left unsaid is fine. I just hope you don't confuse mystery with outright lying.

[UncleMeat]

So rare that the community defines them as "unicorns", yet when speaking to virtually all of my friends who are women they respect men who are sexually inexperienced and many have dated or slept with virgins. Seriously, talk candidly with adults and you'll find that basically none of them care about sexual experience for long term relationships and most don't care about it when it comes to casual hookups. Your general statement is flat out wrong and basing your social interaction on it won't help you get ahead in life.

[FarOrAMess]

I strongly disagree. One thing I do agree with TRP about is that most women will tell you what attracts/doesn't attract them and then go do the exact opposite. It's the classic "the girl told md just to be nice and respect women and then went off to date a jerk" which I think it's safe to say we all know.

[togtogtog]

[STA-CITE]> I don't see the harm in that assumption. [END-CITE]Mwahhh ha ha ha ha!!! *looks evil*. It could lead to underestimation? I guess it depends on what floats your boat. If you want any old woman, well, maybe one that is easy on the eye, but hey - other than that, they are all the same, aren't they? and you don't actually want to have a relationship where you share who you truly are with another human being, then yes, I would agree there is no harm at all in the idea. If you actually are interested in finding people to share your life who have particular types of values, then thinking of everyone as being the same makes it sort of difficult. Excuses and mistakes? In relating to other people? This is just such a world away from the ways in which I think.

[sittinginabaralone]

You're right, it does depend on whatever floats my boat. Everything else you said is a twist of my words. Assuming people behave similarly in similar situations is not a dangerous generalization. After all, how would the field of psychology exist without them? I never said everyone has the same interests and tastes like you make it seem.

[togtogtog]

You mean - we actually agree! :-) Agreement on the internet?!! :-) That's great! :-) So what you are saying is that using generalizations to make decisions, while understanding that they are, indeed, generalizations and that they won't be true for everyone means that we can take short cuts in our behaviour and it helps us to live? Yes - I do agree with that.

[wovenweb]

[STA-CITE]> I do agree with a lot of statements regarding TRP making generalizations about women, to a point of de-humanizing them. But on the other hand [END-CITE]there shouldn't be an "other hand" here, this is like saying "I concede the KKK are racist, but...they instill a lot of confidence in their members" it is empowering at the cost of other people, it is empowering at the cost of respect for women. this movement feels like it instills confidence and empower you, because it does...*at the expense of other people*, it is a superiority game. I completely understand where you're coming from but I believe it is extremely damaging to ignore central tenets of these groups that are horribly mysogynistic (sorry to throw out that controversial word, I just feel it is relevant here). there are far better, more measured, rational ways to become a more positive, confident person. Most things are *not all bad*, and I think you are trying to fight the classic redditor black/white thinking, and I'm glad you're doing that. I think it is better to think about why these communities exist and continue to thrive, and it is because of men like you, who really need support. I would be 100% behind MRA according to its barebones beliefs (which are similar to feminist beliefs) but The Red Pill and its incessant use of the derogatory term "hamsters" and various other things..is just something that will alienate you from some of the population. I am glad you are more confident and happier. As long as you do not feel like you are a better person by knowing how to manipulate women, and I believe these movements propagate arrogance and superiority complexes. I understand the idea that the world is a harsh place, with rough people and people are judging you...but there are plenty of sensitive, kind people out there. And there is absolutely nothing fucking wrong with being sensitive and kind. I feel like they are the people who are have the most trouble being confident. But confidence should never come at the expense of that kindness and that openness and that willingness to connect without judgment. To me, that is true loving connection. The Red Pill thought-processes do not permit true loving connections because they are constantly on the offensive and often view an entire gender as some kind of inferior entity they must subdue, they do not see women as equals.

[sharp7]

I think the point OP was making with the post is that the whole women derogatory thing is not a necessary part of the community at all. TRP is a horrible representation of the PUA community as a whole and if you go to forums of actual sites they tend to be much more constructive and have nothing to do with putting women down. There is no women have to suck in order for you to feel good requirement. I could go on lets say an atheist or christian subreddit and find hateful or absurd things their too, but if you ignore the extremists there are valuable lessons to be learned from both those boards. Basically TRP the subreddit is pretty retarded but the PUA community as a whole isn't and even on TRP there are some useful posts every now and then, which is what OP is in support of.

[FarOrAMess]

My problem with the PUA community,that eventually caused my transition to TRP, is that it promotes maintaining an alpha frame OVER being genuine, and doing nasty things (such as making fun of other people in order to be part of "the cool kids", as presented by RSD Julien) in order to get the oh-so majestic trophy of sex. I sincerely try to avoid any sort of brainwash due to subscription to their methods and ideaologies, but there's no counter-group to it that does anything besides mocking it. If you take a look at /r/thebluepill you can see they only make fun of TRPers and how it didn't work on them, but never discuss how to actually be succesful socially/sexually without those ideaologies as a leading mindset.

[sharp7]

Hmmm, well the thing is there are A LOT of difference schools and ways of thinking in the PUA community. I also went for a "BE HYPER GENUINE ALWAYS" kind of philosophy instead of routines, being a dick, etc. Basically gotta shop around. TRP looks a bit to mad and emotional for my taste but I haven't looked at it too much.

[subheight640]

Are you saying that your own, genuine personality is extremely misogynistic? If so, you should stick with TRP. Studies have shown that TRP tactics are great for selecting for the kind of sexual partner that you want. TRP will help you filter out more egalitarian-minded & liberal women in favor of those that desire traditional gender roles.

[FarOrAMess]

Not at all! But the thing is, for someone new with poor sense of judgement who didn't know just what TRP is but subscribed to their self-help side, will find themselves praising those people helping them and thus have a positive bias towards the mysoginystic articles when approaching them.

[tusko01]

that's an important crux of trp argument. frankly, i'm not interested in the kind of girl who would readily succumb to trp/pua tactics nor the kind of relationship that follows.

[wovenweb]

oh, I understand. I'm sleep deprived so my reading comprehension is pretty poor right now, admittedly. I understand the extremists ruining it and such...but...even the name Pickup Artists...that's already really sleazy and strange to me. And even OPs mention of virginity is ridiculous to me (there is such an obsession with sex in these communities and women just seem like a trophy), I just think all of these sexually-stunted-and-sexually-fixated insecure men are flocking in droves to believe that these people will solve all their issues, and it makes sense to me that starting to go out and actually connect and talk and fuck people helps you, but the way they're going about it just seems predatory to me, even if it's not as blatant as TRP. I will honestly say that I'm not in those subs very much haha so perhaps this is inaccurate, but just from posts linked from TBP I've seen so much unforgivable shit it's pretty hard to believe any of this can be beneficial to anyone over the long run. it just seems like they're causing more damage that will have to be reversed in the future.

[FarOrAMess]

Those communities will always look ridiculous to those who achieved their success through "natural" circumstances and through learning how to better theirselves from an internal source. The problem with it is that they, like the majority of people out there, will never sympathize with people like me who "just don't get it". They can't even imagine the throes of rejection I went through. Not to say they are anything worse than first-world problems, it's exactly what they are, but it made me miserable on very deep levels at the times I was supposed to be out there experiencing these things for the first time. I'll never get my teen years back, I just learned that it's nit that horrible as I used to think.

[wovenweb]

...I understand, but...I did not achieve success through "natural" circumstances (nor have I achieved 'success' at all, though I don't view it the way you do, I think..). I have and have had severe anxiety for over a decade (diagnosed). I still don't really have any friends, though I have gotten more confident over the last year (and not through "natural" means, whatever the hell that means...with medication, exercise, therapy, psychiatry etc.). My teen years are still a gaping wound in my life, they are just..vast emptiness and revolting insecurity, and I know how it feels, I do. I'm kind of a second generation of this..my mom is the same way, and she's actually the only person I've met in face-to-face life that can relate to me on having this huge desolate gap in their life where no one was interested in them at all, where no one wanted to talk to them let alone look their way. when I was 18 I tried to kill myself due to the effects of that indescribable loneliness and desperation. and it affects me to this day. and I understand wanting..needing..anything to help that, anything to be a salve. and I guess..I do get..why being into PUA and even TRP is better than being a suicidal insecure lunatic that is that far gone. I think that's what you're telling me...anything-is-better-than-that..and when you're that far gone, it doesn't matter how morally questionable the solution is..if it helps it helps. I just really do wish there weren't those weird sexist undercurrents in those communities, it makes me sad that a lot of good people would begin seeing women differently/negatively just to help themselves...I take issue with a lot of inclusive gender-based (in this case..male) groups that claim to help people, because..in itself, it is already made to be more distancing. I don't think confidence should be a whatever-means-necessary sort of thing

[sharp7]

You've only seen the worst of it. TRP is already really bad, and then when you add the bias that you are probably only being linked the most sensational of posts its really a bad way to judge anything. I haven't gone on here in years, but you can almost immediately tell its a far cry from TRP : http://www.rsdnation.com/forums/main-forum As for the obsession with sex. It really isn't the end-all-be-all but holy fuck it helps. Sex is really just a measurement of the overall principles of: discipline, confidence, and bravery. Most of the better PUA schools advocate just being awesome and working hard, whether it be by working out or by forcing yourself to go out of your comfort zone and talk to strangers. It is insanely hard to feel confident about anything when you are as socially-ept as an 11 year old when you are 20+. Sex is hugely correlated with social skills so using it as a measurement stick for social progress makes sense. Its also instinctually confidence boosting. When you look at other animals, the lengths males go to for sex is absurd, and its hyper competitive where usually the best and the leaders succeed (best being measured subjectively by the mating ritual). The reverse I think is also very true. When you are devoid of attention from the opposite sex, even if its for legitimate reasons (like just being busy with career), your instinctual drive is telling you "oh you must suck hardcore compared to the other males, otherwise you would be getting laid or equivalent". Its really frustrating but its pretty much undeniable that general self esteem is tied to getting laid or in general attention from the sex you desire.

[wovenweb]

It's just ..these are bizarre concepts to grapple with...due to the fact that I am like OP and some of these men, except I'm a woman. I had little to no romantic interest in me until I was 21. My first relationship was someone I met off the internet. But I took the initiative to meet them off the internet. I worked in therapy to overcome my severe anxiety issues. I wanted to have sex *just as much* if not more than most of these men wanted to have sex (haha the need was strong), but if I found some female equivalent community where demeaning behavior towards men made me more confident...well, I would stay the fuck away from that community. even if that behavior was only hinted at. I wasn't trying to belittle the desire for sex at all in that other comment. I completely understand how it helps, I became a far more confident person after I became sexually active. But I also became a far more confident person engaging in a meaningful, genuine relationship with a man who never pressured me and considered me my equal (didn't even have to be said, it was just a given). I became a better person by being with a man who didn't believe in any semblance of TheRedpill/PUA shit. Women aren't just a tool for you to become more confident by fucking them. I feel like reddit in general (depending on the sub) is very...work-out-be-your-best-self oriented, I don't have to go to specific PUA subs to find that. Even the /r/fitness sub is kind of male-dominated here and spreads a lot of that hard-work-be-confident attitude... if sex is already a huge issue and not getting it is a huge issue for you, dwelling on that and obsessing over it isn't going to help you. I would say learning how to connect with women and valuing them even just as friends (..the horror..) would teach you how to have more fulfilling relationships in the long run, and eventually lead to sex anyway because you're getting out there and exposing yourself to new people.

[Cyralea]

You've got some misconceptions about the place, which is understandable given how prolific TRP's reputation has become outside of the sub. Most people who come to TRP do so for the same reason as OP. They aren't looking for women to use and abuse, they want companionship just as you do. They also want sex, which is something decidedly much harder to obtain as a man than as a woman. TRP explains in a no-bullshit manner how to achieve those ends. To frustrated men, it's the panacea they're looking for. Good for you for figuring out how to succeed without outsider help, but understand that that's really not possible for all men. Especially given how frequently men are given incorrect or misleading advice about sexual relations. TRP fills in a need.

[sharp7]

Well the thing is when I was into it, it wasn't anti-women at all really at least thats not what I took from it. The PUA community when I was into it was really divided. You had scummy people and more natural people, and I mostly prescribed to "juggler"'s style of social interaction which was centered around just being able to talk to people and connect with them. A lot of people that go for it(maybe most?) are actually just looking for a steady girlfriend not a bunch of one night stands like people like to think of them as although a prevailing belief is essentially if you can get laid you can get a GF, which is kind of true (maintaining a good relationship is a whole nother beast though). Also there is just a huge difference between some general self help stuff like fitness, and something that helps DIRECTLY with social interaction with the end goal finding a romantic partner or partners. Also the men that go to these communities aren't some average guy looking for tips, they are usually people HUGELY behind the dating game with no idea what to do, no confidence, and with a lot of fears about socializing. Having a super obsessed and aggressive community is the difference between a person actually finding the courage within themselves to talk to strangers, and them chickening out. Talking to strangers is extremely terrifying as I'm sure you know and you kind of need the extremes to get yourself to do it regularly especially when you are coming from a place of almost no socializing. Also, I don't want this to be offensive but, it is much easier for girls in the dating world than guys usually. Like you said your bf helped you become more confident etc. For guys its the opposite, you can't get a gf unless you are ALREADY great, confident, or have something going for you. Not to mention at least at first guys have to put in a lot more effort at least typically, there are plenty of aggressive girls but typically its the guys that are expected to brave the tundra of starting conversations and escalating. Its harder for us and so it makes sense some guys would need extreme communities to go from social anxiety to constantly meeting strangers and being able to lead conversations.

[Gairyth]

There was a book out a few years ago called "The Rules". It was essentially a PUA instruction manual for women. Do you have an issue with that? No one seems to get upset about the idea of a man cheating on a woman while married, but it blows people's minds to suggest a woman would do so. What is up with that? Even though the red pill is directed towards men, it's precepts are based on HUMAN psychology regardless of gender. About the generalizations. I think that when it concerns something morally questionable there are 4 categories. They are as follows 1. Those who won't under any circumstances (very rare in most cases) 2. Those who do it and enjoy it (small percentage) 3. Those who will do it sometimes if they feel they can get away with it 4. Lastly and probably the most common is the type that would only do it under certain rare circumstances. Now the issue becomes - is subject A a member of group 1 or 4. It is far better to assume that he/she is a 4. You can easily say that a friend of yours isn't a thief, but would he steal something if he/she felt it was something he/she really needed and didn't have another way to get it? It is the same with hypergamy for the red pill. Put most women in the right situation as she will do it.

[turtleintegral]

[STA-CITE]> I do agree with a lot of statements regarding TRP making generalizations about women, to a point of de-humanizing them. [END-CITE]That alone should be reason to ditch the place and the emotional abuse that it promotes in favor of getting laid. I'm not a man, but there's got to be plenty of male self-improvement forums out there that don't promote emotionally manipulating women to get laid. You should find a forum that promotes healthy self improvement and does not tolerate RedPill style abuse and manipulation.

[sharshenka]

The one part of your view that I think can be easily changed is the idea that PUA and TRP are the only game in town for increasing confidence and social ability. [How to Win Friends and Influence People](http://sameffect.com/how-to-win-friends-and-influence-people-summary/) was written in 1936, has sold 15 million copies, and spawned all kinds of seminars and other self-help books and communities. I've read it, and found it very helpful in thinking about how to talk to other people and deal with professional situations. It's a pretty easy read if you have a little extra time in the evenings. I'm glad that you found a way to increase your confidence and are doing better socially. However, if you want to find communities that don't require you to sift through shitty views of women, they certainly do exist.

[FarOrAMess]

I'm yet to read this book, but I don't think it's comparable to those active communities that regulary suggest and discuss those concepts in order to help people improve theirselves. Also, it always feels like those books give you information that helps you only halfway through the process, without being goal-directed. That kind of mentality is necessary for the kind of people who will likely take interest, especially when procrastinators are so common within them.

[Glory2Hypnotoad]

The cool thing about How to Win Friends and Influence People and Dale Carnegie's work in general is that it does have active communities around it. If you want all the advantages of the TRP with none of the misogyny, the best thing you can do for yourself is pick up that book.

[sharshenka]

Sure, any book is just going to be a jumping off point. There are Dale Carnegie classes, and I was in Toastmasters for a while and I think a lot of things they emphasize are similar to HTWFAIP. Toastmasters especially is very reasonable - I think around $25 a year for membership - and if you can't afford things like that there are forums like /r/socialskills which seem alright (although I haven't personally visited there much). Again - your assertion that TRP and PUA are the only places men can learn social strategies is not accurate. Finally, on not being goal oriented, I'm not sure how a book with a goal as its title could be more goal oriented.

[FarOrAMess]

I tried /r/socialskills. It's inactive and semi-helpful. As for masterclasses, do you really think a person should have to pay in order to grow out of his low self esteem and communicate better? Also, I didn't say those are the only ways, I said that despite their drawbacks they offer you a clear model of self improvement in a way that no other place does.

[sharshenka]

This is the quote from your OP that I am mostly arguing against: [STA-CITE]>there is no other community that gives you genuine advice on how to become that successful person you always wanted to be and reach your goals in life [END-CITE]On paying, no I don't think that you should *have* to pay to get social skills. Toastmasters is a club, though, and clubs typically have dues. I see it as similar to suggesting that someone who is struggling with their weight join a gym. Besides, I doubt your path to becoming a pick up artist was completely free. Were there no nights early on where you paid to get into a club just to practice your new skills?

[FarOrAMess]

Actually no, I hate clubs and didn't bother with them because I knew I don't want that kind of success. I agree there are other sources who can give you this kind of advice, but how are you supposed to be exposed them? Should I buy books without knowing that it actually helped people? Those books always use self-promotion sites and the opinion you can get on them is the ones the author feature himself and I really don't buy that.

[sharshenka]

[STA-CITE]>I agree there are other sources who can give you this kind of advice, but how are you supposed to be exposed them? [END-CITE]I have been hearing about How to Win Friends and Influence People since college. The second site after Googling "How to improve my social life" had a quote from Dale Carnegie. I really doubt there is no way to get a sense of which strategies have worked for people in the past. I mean, how did you get exposure to the PUA community? Like I said in my very first post, I'm happy for you that you found something that has helped you. It just seems like your view is based on "I found this method first, so even though there is a lot of vile nonsense in this community, it is definitely the best". I don't think that position is any better than if someone were to say "Christianity is definitely the best way to get inner peace, and it's *so hard* to find another way to learn to be calm and reflective". No, that's just what worked for you, so you stopped looking. That's fine for you, but it doesn't mean other people aren't making valid points when they criticize your chosen group.

[FarOrAMess]

I guess there's a truth to this, but that's why I want my views to be challenged. Everyone is saying what you essentially said which "TRP/PUA isn't the best communities because this and that", yet I didn't get even one example of a community that addresses you personally if you seek help in circumstences that are different from what's presented in its theory, and can give direct feedback to the process you're going through, all the while keep flooding it with new material, based on personal experience and with full analysis. A book can be great and those communities might be as well, but they are way less approachable as a popular subreddit with 80K members or a group of youtube videos under a certain group with millions of views.

[TeBree]

I agree, there unfortunately isn't a community that exists nor is there really something explicitly made for males that isn't - I'm not sure what words to use here - extreme. PUA Material while accurate to a certain extent but takes sub-conscious social cues to mean something entirely different. TRP is merely misogyny covered-up by big complex wording. There used to be incredibly good site called www.datinggroundwork.com by the guy who runs www.succeedsocially.com which is also a good site. It was on archive.org but it's since removed. I thought site was great as it had actual content regarding sex, relationships. I came from a environment where a lot of my friends or now "acquaintances" viewed women, sex rather negatively. I knew it was wrong but didn't know what think instead and for a great deal of my younger years avoided that part of my life until I found content such as his where I developed a view that's positive. I'd recommend reading through Succeedsocially and even The Game by Neil Strauss. I know it's PUA-Material but it's a great book just please read it in it's entirety. I appreciate and enjoyed his book but I do not agree with any of the PUA experts or content he's endorsed. If you need that much help with women, sex or even people your only real option is professional help from a therapist.

[matthewrozon]

so you haven't read it or even looked into it but you think you know all about it?

[FarOrAMess]

Nope, never said that. It's just my experience so far with this kind of books (like 'No More Mr. Nice Guy' by Robert Glover). I would be more than happy for this book to prove me wrong.

[Deansdale]

May I point out that most critics of TRP know practically nothing about it? Their disdain for it is fueled by other critics' misrepresentations. If you happen to find a 10 person circlejerk condemning TRP you can bet good money that ~8 of them have never read a TRP post in its entirety, and probably none of them have ever tried to actually interpret or understand a TRP post for what it is. So your question - *piercing as it is* - is even more applicable to people hating TRP.

[matthewrozon]

How could you possibly know that? I doubt you've done a comprehensive survey of anti-TRP posters.

[Deansdale]

I often visit [TBP](http://www.reddit.com/r/TheBluePill/), [PPD](http://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/), and see posts on /r/bestof about TRP showing a stunning lack of understanding, consisting of nothing more than blind accusations of mysygyny and sociopathy.

[FarOrAMess]

He's actually very correct. Check out /r/thebluepill, it's basically a women circlejerk laughing at negs and other PUA tactics that didn't work on them, and dudes who've been on TRP for 2 weeks and express their feelings of salvation of freeing themselves from the horror that is TRP.

[tusko01]

nah, tpb is mostly just people laughing at the shitty logic, poor understanding of history and overwhelming misogyny

[UncleMeat]

Its hard to say that hugely upvoted quotes from mods and approved commenters are misrepresentations of the community.