WMN: t3_2nccrb_t1_cmebuui

[TITLE]

CMV: Girls and guys can't be BEST friends

[sharp7]

Alright firstly girls and guys can be friends sure. What I'm talking about is real true BEST FRIENDS. Love except its not romantic. Constantly hanging out feeling like you are each other's number 1. Always feeling like you have each other's back. Is this really possible with a straight girl and guy? Don't feelings develop? Can a girl and guy even relate to each other 100% enough for this? For example my previous best friend had the exact same hobbies as I did, hobbies which have almost no girls in them. I bring it up because I recently changed where I live, and I miss having a real true best friend. I met a girl who has a boyfriend (long distance) and they seem serious and I don't think I'm in the mood for a relationship right now anyway, but I really enjoy hanging out with her, it feels like hanging out with my old best friend, and at least on my side so far it doesn't feel romantic. But I can't imagine if it ever escalates into true best friend mode that it will stay like that. I also wonder if I can really be best buds with her in general, we have things in common but aren't the perspectives of girls and guys in this world a bit too different to relate completely. Can a girl give a guy the things that a best guy buddy can? _____ > *Hello, users of CMV! This is a footnote from your moderators. We'd just like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please remember to* ***[read through our rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules)***. *If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which,* ***[downvotes don't change views](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/guidelines#wiki_upvoting.2Fdownvoting)****! If you are thinking about submitting a CMV yourself, please have a look through our* ***[popular topics wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/populartopics)*** *first. Any questions or concerns? Feel free to* ***[message us](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/changemyview)***. *Happy CMVing!*

[DHCKris]

What about gay or asexual girls 'n guys?

[gyrfalcons]

Asexual guy here. I'm biromantic, though, first crush was a girl who sat next to me in school. By OP's reasoning I'm not sure whether this means I can be best friends with everyone (because I'm not interested in sex with anyone) or if it means I can't be best friends with anyone at all because I could potentially want to have a romance with them. The point is OP's reasoning is pretty dumb. It's perfectly possible to like people a ton and to always have their back but to recognize that you both would be incompatible in a long term relationship or as lovers. You can value the shit out of someone's presence in life as a friend while recognizing that they want different things out of life compared to you. One of my best friends basically falls into this category. He's personally conservative, pretty old school, somewhat religious, wants a family, completely straight, would like kids someday... yeah, I trust he has my back and if he ever needs me I have his, but I absolutely wouldn't want a relationship with him. He's still a pretty great guy, all told. And that doesn't mean I wouldn't want a relationship with guys at all - I *am* in a relationship with another guy right now, actually - but in the case of this one friend, I'm reasonably confident in saying love will never happen on either of our sides. Anyway, the point would be about roles. The role of a friend in your life is very different from the role of a lover or a life partner. Someone could check all the boxes in the friend category, but lack that added compatibility that you'd want if you were looking to live with them or be emotionally and/or physically intimate with them.

[trublood]

My best friend through most of high school was a guy, and we never had romantic interest in each other. We talked pretty much every day, through AIM, and saw each other nearly every weekend. We never could have dated each other, because we had very different political beliefs and neither of us could stand dating anybody with different views than us. We helped each other through some hard times though, and had a lot of fun together.

[Bowbreaker]

I've had several female best friends but they were all long distance best friends. One became a long distance friends with benefits but when that stopped the friendship kind of petered out too so watch out for that. In any case, not having a sexual attraction to the friend is a plus.

[sharp7]

Sometimes I wonder if the physical escalation happens because the friendship is in its death rattle. People realize the friendship probably won't last much longer so they try to escalate physically to either try to fix it, or have some fun before it goes away. Especially since a big reason why people don't escalate physically is to keep the friendship safe, if you subconsciously get the feeling that its going to end soon the "lets just play it safe" excuse goes away.

[Bowbreaker]

Damn. Now you made me think.

[sharp7]

Haha thanks. Although this is one of those thoughts that bothers me more than helps me maybe?

[stinatown]

I am a 27 year old straight woman and my best friend is a 27 year old straight man. We met when we were 13 and have been best friends ever since. We currently live together as roommates and we both are in relationships with other people. (Yes, those other people are cool with our friendship--they kind of have to be.) A lot of people assume that there is some romantic past. There's not. I think it helps that we have never been attracted to each other; he goes for girls that look nothing like me, I go for guys that look nothing like him. More importantly, I've known him for so long that he's like my brother--thinking about kissing him skeeves me out, and I'm sure he'd say the same about me. We've had *years* to suss out any sort of romantic connection--plenty of weekends away, guest beds shared, vacations, camping trips, drunken nights--we're just not interested in each other that way. It probably helps that we met when we were both particularly unattractive (ugh, *middle school*) so we got close before romance was really on the table. And yet, he's still my very best friend. We've known each other for over half of our lives. We finish each other's sentences--or, more likely, are thinking the same thing at the same time, and only need to start a sentence before the other person responds. We have awesome memories together, we tell amazing stories in tandem, we know far too much about each other. Some of our interests are different, some are the same, but we know each other well enough to know what the other will or won't like. Occasionally--especially when I'm thinking about the future--I'll think of how much easier things would be if we were a couple instead of best friends/roommates. Usually it's a matter of logistics. One bedroom apartments are cheaper, after all. But then I realize that the kind of person I want to marry is someone else. My best friend is great, but there are things about him that would drive me insane if we were a couple, and I'm sure he could say the same about me. The nice thing is that I can have both. We both have other friends, both male and female. I have my girlfriends, he has his bros. But he's still the person who knows me best. So maybe our situation is rare, but it is possible.

[sharp7]

Wow that's really interesting. Could you give some details or examples of some of the things that prevent you from thinking of him romantically like things he doesn't have that you look for, or things about him that would drive you crazy if you were a couple?

[stinatown]

I'm more sentimental and romantic than he is; he can sometimes be a "frat bro" type. l love spending holidays at my parents' house, tucked in the woods, and he'd rather be jetting to a tropical island. He's spontaneous, while I'm better at planning and details. He (and his girlfriend) love football, beer and wings, going to clubs, and partying; I'm a bit more of a nerdy hipster type. I like dive bars, indie movies, reading. I don't know precisely how to describe it. Being opposites in some ways is great in our friendship--for instance, we love camping at music festivals, and my planning instincts with his sense of adventure make a successful trip every time. Physically--he's short and wiry, a former wrestler; I tend to be attracted for lanky guys in bands or chubby mountain men. Based on his current/former girlfriends, he goes for women shorter and with different--uh--*assets* than mine. His girlfriends are also usually a bit more bubbly where I'm more sardonic.

[sharp7]

Wow thanks! Partyers turn me off as well so I can relate but I'm still friends with many. The only issue is that I don't put my extroverted friends in the same tier as my best ones...

[Mavericgamer]

[STA-CITE]>For example my previous best friend had the exact same hobbies as I did, hobbies which have almost no girls in them. [END-CITE]Something I didn't catch last night, but want to address now: Currently another really good friend, potentially best friend, is a girl, and she and I spend a lot of time together playing video games and playing Magic and playing D&D. You know, things that don't typically have girls in them. There are some things she is into that I'm not (she likes some of the more typical girly anime) and some things I'm into that she's not (I play guitar which she finds frustrating to try), but overall we spend a lot of time doing stuff together. Her mom thinks that she has a crush, but we've talked about it and we just don't feel that way. She's like a little sister to me, and I love her dearly, but I don't LOVE her love her.

[sharp7]

Interesting. Why do you think you guys don't feel that way towards each other?

[Mavericgamer]

That's difficult to explain. For one thing, she's too young for me (there's a 10 year age gap). Another thing is that I'm good friends with her entire family, so if we did date and things went horribly wrong, I'd stand to alienate a good number of my friends. Then, there's just the reasoned portion of it: we get along as friends and while we might have considered dating, the fact is that there are times we can't stand each other, and while we can patch that up as friends it would be bad for both of us if we were more than friends. Finally, the shallow reason: she and I don't really find each other all that attractive. :P

[sittinginabaralone]

This is one of those things that even if it were true, you're breaking the reality of other people who would never let it go. Just apply this rule to your own life. Can you be best friends with a girl? I personally can't so I'm not. But no one who believes their best friend is a girl is going to agree with you. In your situation, there are probably other people as nice or nicer to hang around than a girl with a boyfriend. The girl you're describing is a specific situation that you should probably just avoid. A girl with a boyfriend *will not* always have your back.

[sharp7]

What do you mean not always have your back? Like choose the BF over you basically?

[sittinginabaralone]

Exactly. A guy wouldn't date a girl who didn't consider *him* #1. She'll put you aside fast.

[sharp7]

Ya this is pretty annoying. But wouldn't you say that happens for same sex best friends too, they will be putting their GFs/wives over you? I guess the difference is same-sex friends tend to provide very different things than a GF/wife would, and there is no chance of cheating?

[sittinginabaralone]

I think considering your wife/gf is the main concern.

[sharp7]

You mean your best buds going behind your back and getting your gf/wife to cheat?

[sittinginabaralone]

I don't know what you mean by that. But no, I don't see why my best friend would convince my gf to cheat.

[Salticido]

wat? I'm a woman and my best friend a guy. Before him, my previous best friend was a guy. I'm not attracted to every guy I meet, and not every guy is attracted to me. We watch football together, play video games, go hiking, bitch about coworkers, do favors or give support when we're in need... And in any case, why would developing feelings suddenly make two people NOT "real best friends" any more? Some people can have feelings while still accepting that it'll never be more than friendship. You sound a little sexist. Men and women aren't necessarily that different. I've met men who are more stereotypically feminine than I am.

[junkk]

A "best friend" is a subjective thing. To me, the phrase simply means that one of your friends is closer to you, and understands you better, and you just flat out get along with them better than anyone else. Due to this, they are your favorite, or best, friend. If you look at best friends like this, anyone can be a best friend. If I only have one friend, they are my best friend. If I'm male and my friend is female, that doesn't change. Gender is a very arbitrary and fickle thing. When people say things like, "boys will be boys" or "girls have to play with dolls" or whatever, they are making this image into which they cast everyone the meet, arbitrarily. What if you're a bit that plays with dolls, or a girl who wants to play "boy" sports? The issue comes because everyone is completely unique. No matter how close you are to someone, there are parts of you that are different. Similarly, no matter how different you may be to someone, you share something common. Friendships can blossom in any number of ways, and restricting by gender or age or race or anything at all is limiting the scope of life's experience.

[Crayshack]

[STA-CITE]>Is this really possible with a straight girl and guy? [END-CITE]Yes. My best friend at the moment is a woman. [STA-CITE]>Don't feelings develop? [END-CITE]They can, but that doesn't negate a friendship in my mind. In the case of me and my friend, there is mutual physical attraction, but we have agreed that a relationship between us would not work due to us both being subs. [STA-CITE]>Can a girl and guy even relate to each other 100% enough for this? [END-CITE]Unless you have identical people with identical life experiences, everyone will have differences between them. It is the differences between people that make things interesting, rather than just being friends with a mirror of yourself. It is possible for two guys to have more different interests and life experiences than a guy and a girl. [STA-CITE]>For example my previous best friend had the exact same hobbies as I did, hobbies which have almost no girls in them. [END-CITE]Unless your biggest hobby is peeing standing up, there will be at least some girls into it. You don't need your best friend to have all of the same hobbies as you, just enough of them that you guys do lots of things together. [STA-CITE]>Can a girl give a guy the things that a best guy buddy can? [END-CITE]What does a guy give that a girl cannot?

[Mavericgamer]

[STA-CITE]> Unless your biggest hobby is peeing standing up, there will be at least some girls into it. [END-CITE]I think someone made a device for this, so there are girls into that too.

[Val5]

I think you are right when it comes to most people. I couldn't do it (I can elaborate on the reasons why if anyone wants to discuss but it is irrelevant to change your view since it supports it.) However some people really can - there really are a few people who can ignore that they are different gender. These people have to be both a) not attracted to each other; and b) not bothered by the fact that the other person isn't attracted to them (which one can be without being attracted themselves to the person in question). Second, some situations naturally help making it easier. For instance, if you grew up with someone you are likely to perceive them as a sibling and not develop attraction even if not related. That is a mechanism most of us have naturally that prevents incest (on the other hand if you don't know your own sibling while growing up, you can feel attraction.) It is possible to be so compatible in something that doesnt affect attraction that the person just naturally becomes a perfect friend, without an idea that such person would make a satisfactory partner - for instance you both have a similar nature and need partners who are the opposite in that way to function, but as friends you offer good understanding. Of course, if someone is gay I don;'t even need to mention (but keep in mind that gay people have friends of their own gender - why is that possible but opposite genders in hetero people wouldn't be?), but even if someone is bi it can mean they simply are used as a person to be friendly with some people of the same gender as people they date - otherwise they'd have no friends. It is also possible for a friendship to form based on some similar life experience and compassion, or time, without there being attraction. If a man and a woman are spending a lot of time together working on the same interest, they might become best friends and know each other deeply, or be put in a situation where they learn to depend on each other to the point of becoming best friends, without developing attraction. The same people would never meet by approching each other and initiating friendship, but circumstance created it. Girls and guys aren;t completely different, it is all about the individuals. When it comes to an individual generalizations stop to matter since you can't predict anything about a specific girl you could predict for a large group of girls. Among 6 people most similar to you in the world can be both men and women. Thats not even an issue.

[sharp7]

[STA-CITE]> I think you are right when it comes to most people. I couldn't do it (I can elaborate on the reasons why if anyone wants to discuss but it is irrelevant to change your view since it supports it.) [END-CITE]Yes please elaborate!

[Val5]

So, with the exceptions of huge age difference or them being gay or us being related, I am just too aware of the potential for attraction. If I am not attracted at all to them, unfortunately I still care whether or not they are attracted to me. I want them to be, because of my ego, but I don't want them to be, because it messess up the potential for true closeness. But I always want them to find me attractive. If we got even a bit physical or if we were alone with each other and close, for whatever reason even if I don't like them at all, I would have some type of awareness of the potential for attraction. I don't know how to call it, it's not the same as to say that I am actually attracted, but that scenario just exists in my mind. I wonder if they find me hot, if something could happen if I made a move... I do it even if its not my attention at all. You could say I can just ignore it and push it back, but it would cause me to inadvertently start to act differently. I'd either start subtly seducing them, or aware of it, become way too withdrawn. it would be hard for me to have a normal relaxed conversation like I could with my own. Sometimes this would cause me to get incredibly shy, even anxious in many situations. I start to overly analyze everything I am saying to them, how I am comming across, what if they misunderstand something as me coming on to them etc. They make me too self aware, even if we are generally similar. i could be good friends with some of them. I could do some activities, like have coffee or some drinks in a public setting. But to just feel fully relaxed to call each other any time and talk, or hang out in private... I'd have to be in the right mental zone to be able to handle it. Maybe a better way of explaining it - I always care what they think of me, even if I don't care about them at all. I can never allow myself to be seen in some ways that sends an image of me that isn't complimentary. That's a pressure. That also means that while we can talk about topics, I can never experience true intimacy. I am always playing a role a little bit and I can't help it. Not being fake, just... not being myself completely I guess? I know its not this way for some people, but I think it is true for a big part of people. There are just some inhibitions between us, and I can't get over it to such extent that I could reach closeness I would call best friends. Only a SO could be a best friend like that. Maybe.

[sharp7]

Wow this post is really insightful. I think it touches on why anyone would have trouble with being close with a stranger. Do you still have this feeling of, having to get them to like you for your ego, when you already have an SO? I would imagine you wouldn't need the ego boost as much if you already have someone. I would agree that the constant self consciousness is a huge part of why it can be hard to be super close in general. That feeling of being alone with them in a situation that would otherwise be romantic or at the least could lead to physical escalation is a horrible feeling. Have you turned down hanging out with someone alone just because you were scared of feeling self conscious? I know if I was them I would be thinking something along the lines of "They must dislike me or not value me enough" instead of "They want to impress me but that makes them nervous" which if I knew, would totally make me feel better.

[09112001]

It depends on the feelings of attraction... oftentimes, sadly enough, one party is romantically attracted to their opposite-sexed "BFF", whereas the other party is not. Never a good situation to be in. But if both aren't attracted to each other, I don't see the problem. Maybe rare for them to be BEST friends, but close friends nonetheless. I've experienced it myself.

[sharp7]

That difference between best and close makes a big difference though IMO.

[speedyjohn]

Of course it is possible. From what you wrote, I'm assuming you are a straight man. Are you physically attracted to every girl you meet? Of course not. That doesn't have anything to do with whether you click with someone emotionally. If two people are emotionally compatible but not physically attracted to each other, it is perfectly reasonable for them to be best friends. Why can't a guy and a girl "always have each other's back"? I am a straight man. My best friend is a straight woman. How? We have incredibly similar personalities and trust each other to a fault, but neither of us is what the other is looking for in a romantic relationship. It works just fine for us. Now, I'm not saying that *every* straight guy would be able to have a female best friend, but it seems absurd to suggest that none can. What about gay men? Can they not have best friends who are men? Can people who are bisexual have no close friends? As to your point about compatibility: no two people are 100% compatible in every way. No two people shares 100% the same interests as everyone else. What matters for friendship is that you and your friend have common interests/attitudes in the areas that you think matter. For example: I am interested in baseball and chess. These are two areas whose fan bases (unfortunately) tend to skew male. However, I don't care if my friends share those interests. In fact, hardly any do. I would rather my friends have a similar sense of humor, similar political attitudes and be capable of engaging me in intelligent debate. None of those have anything to do with the gender of my friends. Indeed, I would find it boring if all my friends shared all my interests. I prefer being able to try new things and experience new ideas! You ask "Can a girl give a guy the things that a best guy buddy can?" What I want from my friends -- particularly a best friend -- is someone I can talk to (whether it is bounce ideas off of or to vent emotions), someone I can trust, and someone who I can enjoy spending time with. There is absolutely no reason that a girl can't provide that to a guy.

[sharp7]

[STA-CITE]> particularly a best friend -- is someone I can talk to (whether it is bounce ideas off of or to vent emotions), someone I can trust, and someone who I can enjoy spending time with. [END-CITE]The problem is those are also basically the things I look for in a GF as well, and from some what I've gathered some girls look for that in BFs as well. So except for weird circumstances what stops romantic feelings from developing at least on one side? I guess the person who has feelings could just bite the bullet and hang out and be friends anyway?

[Mavericgamer]

My best friend is a girl I've known since I was 4. She and I basically grew up like brother and sister, and so feelings didn't develop there due to that; there's a fancy name for it that I can't remember but basically people don't develop feelings like that for people they've known since before age 6 or so.

[sharp7]

This is a good point, unfortunately I don't know any girls I've known since 4 or many people in general. But there is science to back this up for sure.

[speedyjohn]

Your CMV wasn't that *you* can't be best friends with a girl, it was that girls and guys can't be best friends. If /u/Mavericgamer's comment changed part of that view, you should award a delta.

[sharp7]

ok

[sharp7]

partial ∆ The super young hang out = you think you are siblings with them thing is definitely a valid loop hole but its so specific I don't want to give a full delta

[DeltaBot]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Mavericgamer. ^[[History](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/Mavericgamer)] ^[[Wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltabot)][[Code](https://github.com/alexames/DeltaBot)][[Subreddit](http://www.reddit.com/r/DeltaBot/)]

[sharp7]

boop

[Nepene]

Mod here. You should edit in more text to explain your delta and then comment to deltabot so that it rescans your comment.

[sharp7]

Thanks I just did so hope it works.

[Crayshack]

[The term you are looking for is the Westermarck effect.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westermarck_effect)

[Mavericgamer]

Thank you, that is exactly right. On a pseudo-related note: [STA-CITE]>When proximity during this critical period does not occur — for example, where a brother and sister are brought up separately, never meeting one another — they may find one another highly sexually attractive when they meet as adults or adolescents, according to the hypothesis of genetic sexual attraction (this is also known as the Skywalker effect) [END-CITE]TIL there is something called "the Skywalker effect" that refers to siblings being raised separately from each other finding each other sexually attractive later in life.

[lifeonthegrid]

You're not really asking about guys and girls in general, you're asking about your specific situation. Just because your hobbies skew predominately male, doesn't mean everyone's do. Plenty of people have hobbies that are fairly balanced in terms of gender. Plenty of people also don't share all of their hobbies with their best friends. As for the attraction component, there are plenty of people mature enough to not let sexual attraction get in the way of a friendship. There are also plenty of people who don't find each other sexually attractive, but are still very compatible as friends.

[sharp7]

There's staying friends with someone you have feelings for, and having someone you have feelings for be your super super close friend who you spend most of your time with. I feel like its incredibly hard to do the second or at least thats what I've seen so far.

[lifeonthegrid]

See, you're leaping ahead to having feelings for someone. Plenty of people don't even get the point of developing feelings for one another and are just good friends.

[man2010]

I hate to use anecdotal evidence, but my best friend used to be a girl (I'm a guy). For me and her it was more the opposite of how you seem to describe it; we were kind of friends, we dated for a very brief period of time, and then mutually broke up and ultimately became extremely good friends. We would talk basically every day and hang out all the time while telling each other everything about each other. We dated other people while maintaining our friendship and never really developed any true feelings for each other outside of friendship. We have since grown apart (although I do still talk with her and see her occasionally), but from my experience it is absolutely possible to be best friends with someone from the opposite sex.

[sharp7]

Why did you break up?

[man2010]

We both preferred being friends with each other to being in a relationship with each other. We didn't date any longer than a couple months but were best friends for years.

[sharp7]

What did you not like about being in a relationship with them?

[MizzKittay]

Checking in to say ditto! So do three instances of anecdotal evidence change OPs view based on his own anecdotal evidence?

[piwikiwi]

I have the same experience expect that I'm still friends with her.

[entrodiibob]

Sooooo does your view exclude brothers and sisters?

[sharp7]

yes

[YossarianWWII]

Done. Fraternal emotions aren't rooted in some genetic message that allows you to discern who your blood relatives are. They're a complex social interaction that occurs between people who've shared significant experiences, be they dramatic or benign. They can be shared by practically anybody, given the correct circumstances.

[WilsonElement154]

I'm not sure I understand the relevance or meaning of your post. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just don't think I see your point. In reply to what I think you are saying: Fraternal relationships are not the same as being best friends.

[YossarianWWII]

Can you be best friends with a female sibling?

[WilsonElement154]

I suppose you could say that. I find it difficult to make meaningful distinctions for this topic. Generally, I would classify familial bonds (however close they may be) separately to bonds of friendship between unrelated people. In the end I guess I'm having a problem with the semantics and I wonder if OP wouldn't define best friends as I would. Edited: Clarity

[sharp7]

Yes, for obvious reasons. Although that feeling is formed from hanging out with someone when you are very very young and as someone else mentioned can occur with people you aren't related to.