WMN: t3_2p8d3m_t1_cmu9s0f

[TITLE]

CMV: Hard work doesn't matter

[AgentOmega]

A person who is born to rich parents will succeed better than those better educated. connections and socio-economic status mean so much more than hard work that it only baring is on people who are competing at the same tier, in other words it only matter when it is a tiebreaker between you and another person at your level. No matter how hard you work you will never be richer than bill gates. The average person has almost no chance of seeing the wealth of the top 1% no matter how many years of effort they put in. Luck, money at birth, connections, those are the only factors that actually determine success in the western world. EDIT: for the record I want to be wrong, I REALLY do, but everything I have experience or seen online suggests that if hardwork were a force multiplier of x1 Then luck is x100 and money is x10000 and at those kinds of scales it's relative importance is very small. I really want numerical evidence showing that hardworks matters The example I provided is below. _____ > *Hello, users of CMV! This is a footnote from your moderators. We'd just like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please remember to* ***[read through our rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules)***. *If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which,* ***[downvotes don't change views](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/guidelines#wiki_upvoting.2Fdownvoting)****! If you are thinking about submitting a CMV yourself, please have a look through our* ***[popular topics wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/populartopics)*** *first. Any questions or concerns? Feel free to* ***[message us](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/changemyview)***. *Happy CMVing!*

[TonyToucher]

You think every single successful person in the whole world was born into it?

[AgentOmega]

No I think most of them got there by a headstart, good luck, and a average amount of work.

[sillybonobo]

[STA-CITE]>No matter how hard you work you will never be richer than bill gates. The average person has almost no chance of seeing the wealth of the top 1% no matter how many years of effort they put in. [END-CITE]Why define success this way? With hard work you can rather reliably see an income in the top 5%, and the top 1% with certain careers (Doctors, for instance). My thought would be to set conditions you want to achieve and work as hard as one might need to meet them. Certain goals, like being ultra-rich may be unrealistic, but being very successful would not be. Will your hard work have (perhaps) lower return than for others who are luckier at birth? Yes. But why does this mean the work doesn't matter?

[rtwun58]

The thing that is left out of the (1) "hard work" vs (2) "luck/family/connections" distinction is this: (1) what have you accomplished with all your hard work? or (2) how have you made the most of the advantages you were born with? As soon as you have a track record, which begins to accumulate early in life in school and college you are in a position to show what you've accomplished. Working hard is no good in itself. If your efforts are not fruitful and you don't actually do a good job at something, you may learn from the experience and do better next time, but someone else may have worked just as hard and done a better job.

[togtogtog]

You are measuring success using money. From seeing people talk here, that seems a very American way to measure success. What about happiness, creativity, love? Are you saying that Van Gogh wasn't successful? That someone with lots of family and friends isn't successful? That the Dali Lama isn't successful? That Mother Teresa wasn't successful? Hard work is usually a result of complete absorption in what you are doing. The things that you work hard to achieve are often the things in life that give you more satisfaction. I've noticed that in the US, getting an education seems to be all about earnings, rather than learning. Enjoying the process of discovery, being curious, working out how to do something. To me, the obsession with money is a real failure. You are missing out on all the important stuff!

[kevinparry1]

I think you giving too much weight to the myth that all rich people almost always come from rich parents. It turns out that 80% of people are first generation rich, in terms of net worth. The reason that poor people stay poor is mainly because they inherit poor habits from their parents. Rich parents typically teach their children habits that rich people have, which gives them higher odds of becoming wealthy, or having a high income, as well as providing for education. Having access to money from a parent can be a benefit but can also be a financial crutch. The best thing I can do is give my personal example. Both sets of my grandparents were poor, but thrifty. This was passed to my parents, whom became wealthy by my dad working a job, and then coming home and working hard on other projects. They might be at the 1% level, maybe just outside of it. I work a job, come home and then work of my real estate, or other projects. I received no money from my parents (except a couple of vehicles). If I continue to work I will become a 1% person, due to hard work, thrifty living, and some luck in opportunities that became available. The big key to attaining wealth is the thrifty lifestyle. Becoming wealthy is attainable to almost everyone, but people get caught up in the american standard of living.

[jay520]

Even if everything you said in the OP were true, it would not support the claim in your title. In fact, it seems to negate it. Based on what you said, you're implying that if you're rich/lucky, hard work doesn't matter. Taking the converse of that implication: if you aren't rich or lucky, then hard work *does matter*, since hard work is the only thing you have. You could argue that hard work would never accomplish what wealth + luck can accomplish, but I'm not sure how that supports your claim at all. It seems like you believe that the only thing that "matters" is reaching the top 1% in wealth, but this seems like a ridiculous definition of what matters and what's valuable. I could say that the only thing that "matters" is being a 5-time NBA champion, and I could then argue that hard work does not matter solely because I'm 5'4 and without talent. I guess, in a way, you're right that hard work doesn't matter if the only thing that you value is being among the most wealthiest people in the world. Just like I would technically be right if I said hard work doesn't matter if the only that I valued was being a 5-time NBA champion. Just like a homeless person would technically be right if he said ten bucks "mattered" if ten bucks was what he needed to eat that night. At the end of the day, what "matters" is subjective. I personally believe that wanting to be wealthy *just* for the sake of being in a prestigious 1% "club" is a pointless and shallow desire, but that would just be my opinion. And while I can't prove that my interpretation of value is better than yours, I can say that realistically attainable dreams allow for much more happiness and fulfillment than unrealistic ones. Hopefully that changes your mind on what you should value in your short life on this planet.

[caw81]

You are only talking about comparative success. I could work hard and raise myself up from poverty to middle class or even upper middle class and would definitely matter to me.

[RU_Crazy]

You seem to be looking at this as if its Bill Gates or bust. In reality hard work can improve your economic outlooks at least marginally. I don't know about you but going from $40k to 60 a year would be a massive improvement in lifestyle. The evidence I will provide you is my own father. Came here with nothing as a teen. Worked two jobs while taking on 20 units in college. Earned an engineering degree. Took two jobs out of college. Worked his ass off and still does and now he's moved from dirt poor (as in the country he came from didn't even have indoor toilets) to upper middle class and border line wealthy. His mantra has and always will be hard work is the only thing that matters.

[subheight640]

I know a guy who was born into wealth. After the economic collapse, he and his family lost all of their wealth. Being rich in the present is obviously no guarantee of wealth in the future. . Obviously no, the average person has no chance of becoming the top 1%. By definition, the *average* person is average and has no skills that could propel him to wealth. [STA-CITE]>I really want numerical evidence showing that hardworks matters [END-CITE] Why don't you look at those poor ass asians who are sending their kids into Ivy leagues and have managed to capture a significant amount of wealth, despite being minorities. http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/asianamericans-graphics/ It also just so happens that the most successful ethnic demographic in the United States believes in hard work: [STA-CITE]>Asian Americans have a pervasive belief in the rewards of hard work. Nearly seven-in-ten (69%) say people can get ahead if they are willing to work hard, a view shared by a somewhat smaller share of the American public as a whole (58%). And fully 93% of Asian Americans describe members of their country of origin group as “very hardworking”; just 57% say the same about Americans as a whole. [END-CITE]

[TurdFurgis0n]

If you want to be really good at something, hard work towards improving yourself is all that really matters. Starting with money can allow you to be able to work hard to become good at something without distractions (you won't be able to improve yourself if you spend all your energy just getting food). If you want to be really really rich, that comes more from what you choose to become good at and luck. But having money to start with does not make you successful, it just gives you the opportunity to work hard. If you want to hear about it from someone more eloquent than myself (and who cites their sources), you should pick up a copy of [Talent is Overrated](http://www.amazon.com/Talent-Overrated-Separates-World-Class-Performers/dp/1591842948). It used to be on Pirate Bay, so you can probably find a PDF somewhere.

[sennalvera]

I disagree. Some are born advantaged and some disadvantaged, but success requires hard work no matter where you start from. I'm not saying that everyone has the same opportunities, it's obviously true that some people have it easier than others. But to say that hard work doesn't matter at all is simply wrong. [STA-CITE]>A person who is born to rich parents will succeed better than those better educated. [END-CITE]Probably true, but irrelevant. Your premise is that hard work doesn't matter. If that were true then all people of similar socioeconomic status and opportunities would do equally well, whether they were hardworking or were lazy. This is not the case. Ambition and drive matters.

[AgentOmega]

[STA-CITE]> This is not the case. Ambition and drive matters. [END-CITE]14.36% of American children born to parents in the uppermost economic bracket remain there as adults. Getting a college degree only raises the value to 15.54%. It seems to amount to be about a 1% difference. I hardly call that compelling.

[sennalvera]

That means that 85.64% of people born into extreme wealth and privilege *don't* stay there, in spite of all their advantages. So why not?

[AgentOmega]

That is a great question. You have me looking for an answer.

[RYouNotEntertained]

Yeah OP, that stat is not very compelling for you argument, in fact it seems counter to your claim. The more pertinent question would be, how many American children born middle or lower class end up in a higher one, and to what do you attribute that?

[Kman17]

You need at least two of the following three things to be wildly successful: * Hard work / innovation * Luck * Money Hard work is often a necessary, but not sufficient way of being successful. Your case study, Bill Gates, came from a fairly average background. That goes for most of the new tech billionaires, for that matter. They owe to their success to luck and hard work, not being born into wealth. Being born into wealth is a massive advantage of course, but without some knowledge or luck that wealth will disappear over time (usually very slowly, but occasionally and very satisfyingly rapidly).

[AgentOmega]

I guess my point is that you need far more money or luck to be successful than hard work, someone with a 30 million bank account after their parents died needs never work again. really all you need is money, even minimum luck and minimum effort can be rewarded handsomely with enough money. Think of an index fund return or saving account. the reverse is not true, you can work hard forever and with minimum luck and minimum money you will be toiling there forever.

[Penguinfernal]

I read a quote somewhere on reddit yesterday that went something like "Hard work places you where luck can find you." I'm way too tired to elaborate right now, but I think it's worth consideration.

[man2010]

Success is subjective. Someone who comes from a family that relied heavily on government welfare programs may see success as being able to get by without any assistance from the government. Someone who grows up in the lower middle class may see success as moving into the upper middle class. Someone who grows up in the upper middle class may see success as making a six figure salary. Success isn't just becoming a millionaire, to many people it's simply being able to get by independently or being able to slightly move up the social ladder. To these people hard work is essential to success.

[namae_nanka]

[STA-CITE]> Your case study, Bill Gates, came from a fairly average background. [END-CITE]Nope and his mother was fairly influential in his success. Gary Kildall would be in OP's favor. http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2004-10-24/the-man-who-could-have-been-bill-gates

[jghaines]

[STA-CITE]> Your case study, Bill Gates, came from a fairly average background [END-CITE]No, Bill Gates' family was very wealthy. He attended an exclusive prep school and his parents could send him to Harvard. I think he actually had all three of the criteria you mention.

[Kman17]

Upper middle class might have been a better phrase than "average". His father was a lawyer. He was comfortable growing up, but not gifted a giant trust fund like the kind of wealth OP is referring to.

[jmsolerm]

[STA-CITE]>His father was a lawyer. He was comfortable growing up, but not gifted **a giant trust fund** like the kind of wealth OP is referring to. [END-CITE]"His son, James Willard Maxwell was also a banker and established **a million-dollar trust fund** for William (Bill) Henry Gates III." From [How to Become As Rich As Bill Gates](http://www.anthonyevans.net/asrichasbill.htm).

[skacey]

You cannot choose to be born rich, or lucky. Lets say that the rich and lucky are 1% of the population, that means that 99% of the population do not have that option. If hard work is the best chance of success available, then it may be the only worth while option that you have. Your choice is between hard work and failure unless you are already rich or lucky.

[AgentOmega]

∆ I don't think this was the answer I was looking for, but it was definitely the answer I needed to read

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[fanningmace]

You don't think hard work matters for people like athletes, actors, or musicians? What about someone who owns a small business?

[looklistencreate]

How do you think Bill Gates got as rich as he did? He sure as hell didn't inherit all of it. I think your personal experience is very biased. Most of the rich people you're aware of are famous, and they're more likely to be rich because they were lucky or born into it. People like Kim Kardashian make up a much smaller portion of rich people than the ones who worked a lot for it. Only a few lucrative jobs involve fame, and the ones that do usually don't involve as much work. And what does it matter if you're in the top 1%? Only 1% of people get to be in the top 1%. What should matter more is how much you can make in absolute terms.

[Flyers789]

The problem with this is that youre measuring sucess as being in the top 1%. Unless we changed to a communistic utopian society then there are always be a wealth gap. There are plenty of lesser goals that you can achieve and still consider yourself successful. If it were only possible to become wealthy because of inherited wealth then how did the wealth get there in the first place? I do not disagree that your birth conditions can make it easier, but this does not mean its the ONLY way to become wealthy.

[AgentOmega]

Everyone measures wealth as success or we wouldn't keep count. If there is score it is a competition and therefore someone has to be winning. My argument is that the rules of the game are completely unfair and the only thing that matters is what team you were drafted on.

[ablarga]

But even if you use the sports analogy - even the best players on the best sports teams still need to work hard. It's not like you get drafted onto the best team and you suddenly never have to work out or practice again. You're working harder than ever to just maintain your status and not let everyone around you down. Hard work is like an engine. If you don't work, at best you stay where you are. Some people start in places they don't mind staying. But if you want to get somewhere "better" you need to work hard first, and hope for the other stuff to follow.

[sailorbrendan]

[STA-CITE]> Everyone measures wealth as success or we wouldn't keep count. [END-CITE]I'm working hard at making just enough money to open my own business, probably slip back into poverty but have grand adventures along the way. I'll feel way more sucessful when I'm following my dreams than I'm currently feel with my relatively high income.

[borramakot]

If wealth is the only thing that matters, then yes I suppose Bill Gates is the only person that is "winning". That doesn't mean that the other 7 billion people are all "losing", or that hard work doesn't move you along the scale of wealth in meaningful ways. By definition, your odds of being in the top 1% in any system are basically... 1%. "The average person has almost no chance of seeing the wealth of the top 1% no matter how many years of effort they put in" is pretty much true by definition. That doesn't mean that hard work doesn't affect your odds.

[AgentOmega]

The question at hand; does it affect your odds in a significant way? if so what evidence shows this?

[borramakot]

I'm digging around for some research myself- it's an interesting question. The best I have so far is: http://www.nber.org/papers/w4808.pdf I think to get a better answer, I need to know how you want to define hard work. Hours worked? Education level/GPA? (Education and GPA are certainly correlated with wealth, but I don't think it's controversial to say your GPA will go up if you work harder).

[ThePantsParty]

A huge problem here is that you're acting like "hard work" is some general all-encompassing thing you're either doing or not doing in a binary way and that is the only thing that matters. What also matters is *what* hard work you're doing obviously. I could go out in the yard and start digging a giant hole and work *really* hard at it, but is that going to give me success in life? No, obviously not. However what if the hard work I do instead is to go to school for 7 years and become a brain surgeon? Well then yeah, my hard work will definitely be giving me success. Are you proposing that I would have become a brain surgeon *without* hard work? Because that seems rather absurd.

[Flyers789]

It definitely affects your odds, and You gave an example elsewhere in this thread. If only 14% of people born into wealth stay wealthy that means that the other 86% squander their wealth because they dont work hard. Inversely, if the group of wealthy people is only comprised of 14% of people who were born into it, the rest of the group must be made up of people who worked hard to get there/got lucky and you can not attribute that all to luck.

[Flyers789]

Unfair? Probably. This is one of the biggest issues with wealth today. But being born with the tools of sucess does not mean that you will stay succesful. Think about all of the people we see who squander their wealth and end up destitute because they had no skills to support the wealth. Wealthy people can stay wealthy but if they have no skills they can just as easily throw it down the drain.