WMN: t3_2zfhj9_t1_cpifqxb

[TITLE]

CMV: Identifying as a gender you weren't born with should be pointless

[AirBlaze]

First and foremost, I believe that women and men should be treated equally. The problem is, I feel this conflicts with transgenderism. I understand that some people are born feeling like they don't belong in their gender, and I fully support those who choose to change their sex and/or hormones to feel right. What I don't understand is those who decide they want to be *considered* a man after being born a woman. Why would someone decide they want to be "treated like a man" when all my life I've been told women should be treated the same? Does that mean we're losing the battle for gender equality, and trans folks are just quitters? Please get this negative thought out of my mind and CMV. This is coming from a confused feminine guy that struggles to feel acceptable without redefining what **he** is. Edit to clarify: I'm aware that men and women are treated differently, but feel that they shouldn't be, and therefore shouldn't have to make the distinction. Edit 2: Basically, gender is a silly unnecessary concept. Sex (the physiological characteristics) isn't, but gender is. Edit 3: Wow, this was informational. Thanks, everyone. _____ > *Hello, users of CMV! This is a footnote from your moderators. We'd just like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please remember to* ***[read through our rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules)***. *If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which,* ***[downvotes don't change views](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/guidelines#wiki_upvoting.2Fdownvoting)****! If you are thinking about submitting a CMV yourself, please have a look through our* ***[popular topics wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/populartopics)*** *first. Any questions or concerns? Feel free to* ***[message us](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/changemyview)***. *Happy CMVing!*

[Ferrousity]

Societal constructs of how different genders "should be treated" is archaic hogwash anyway. As far as the whole "if gender doesn't matter, then how do Trans* people fit?", here's this: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/03/trans-people-gender-essentialism/

[law-talkin-guy]

When people talk about gender equality, they generally mean an end to invidious discrimination or even discrimination, but most people don't argue for 100% gender equality. There are places where treating the genders differently makes (to most people sense). For example Men and women using bathrooms and locker rooms labeled with their gender, (at least some) gendered language like "Mr." or "Sir" and "Ms." or "Mrs." or "mam", different TSA officials conduct pat-downs for women and men, and so on. These aren't examples of invidious discrimination they are places where most men and most women want to be treated slightly differently. Not because men are better and women worse or because women are better and men worse, but because women and men are different. Asking to be treated as a woman or a man in those situations isn't giving up on equality of the sexes it's simply asking that in the places where we acknowledge gender differences we treat a person as being the gender they identify with.

[digiacom]

While queer theory and transgenderism do a great job of asking tough questions about gender, the fact is that most people identify strongly with their biological sex coordinated with their social gender, and that the majority culture in every country in the world (that I know of) has clearly delineated male and female groups. This means that men and women have different traditional social roles and responsibilities. Gender equality in part ensures that those who don't conform to those roles and responsibilities are not discriminated against, but doesn't at all guarantee a society where people don't appreciate, even celebrate, different genders and their difference social/cultural niches. Gender equality does not mean gender sameness, or gender-less-ness. It means equal opportunities, rewards, and rights for people regardless of gender, and freedom of discrimination based on gender. Transgender individuals benefit much more in a truly gender-equal society than most people because their socially unusual circumstance of switching gender would never be grounds for discrimination, loss of rights, or unequal opportunities and rewards. They would neither gain nor lose anything societally in terms of privileges, but socially and physically would be far more comfortable. Yay! Gender equality is (would be?) a triumph, especially for anyone outside of a dominant culture's gender paradigm.

[mossimo654]

I'm not the biggest expert on this, but I think you're confusing the difference between sex and gender. Sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women (ie. genitalia). Gender refers to the socially-constructed roles, behaviors and attributes associated with men and women (ie. women wear dresses, speak in a higher voice, have longer hair, men have shorter hair, participate in "masculine" activities etc). One way to think of it is a difference in sex is "male and female" and a difference in gender is "masculine and feminine." There are intersex people who are born in between the two poles of sex, but in general this is the difference. Basically the idea is that it's a spectrum. [STA-CITE]> What I don't understand is those who decide they want to be considered a man after being born a woman. Why would someone decide they want to be "treated like a man" when all my life I've been told women should be treated the same? Does that mean we're losing the battle for gender equality, and trans folks are just quitters? Please get this negative thought out of my mind and CMV. [END-CITE]Folks say men and women *should be* treated equally, not that they *are*. For example, men and women have very different expectations placed upon them, and have different socially-defined roles. Someone may feel that they are "born the wrong sex" and therefore redefine their gender role to fit that identity. They may undergo reassignment surgery and take hormones and thereby actually alter their sex. Hopefully this makes sense.

[stevegcook]

[STA-CITE]>Gender refers to the socially-constructed roles, behaviors and attributes associated with men and women (ie. women wear dresses, speak in a higher voice, have longer hair etc). [END-CITE]This is more of a description of gender roles in society, rather than gender identity. Which is very much a real, not societally-constructed thing as well. Your examples don't really line up with your description either - for example, the idea that women speak with higher voices isn't a socially-constructed role.

[mossimo654]

It's not a universal definition, but the WHO differentiates between sex and gender identity, as does much of academia. Also, if roles define identity, I'm not sure what the difference is? [STA-CITE]> for example, the idea that women speak with higher voices isn't a socially-constructed role. [END-CITE]Tone of voice is absolutely [socially conditioned](https://books.google.com/books?id=-8z3CUhv8pYC&pg=PA413&lpg=PA413&dq=tone+of+voice+gender&source=bl&ots=mRJ6bJGkWf&sig=IpTtdlj8UogFOE1twGVsEcCkGlc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MgIJVfuhI5P9oQT-r4DoCw&ved=0CFEQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=tone%20of%20voice%20gender&f=false). Socially-constructed doesn't mean it's independent of biology. Linguists have known about this for years.

[CanadianWizardess]

Because a lot of trans people have what's often referred to as *social dysphoria* (a subset of general gender dysphoria). An example of social dysphoria would be a trans man (FTM) feeling intense discomfort when someone calls him "she". For him, it's not so much about being treated as a man, but being recognized as one. He views himself as a man, and so wants others to do the same. And it's not just trans people who feel this way; most people dislike being misgendered.

[AirBlaze]

I see where you're coming from. My view is that it shouldn't be that way. People shouldn't dislike being misgendered, or feel a need to make that distinction.

[CanadianWizardess]

So...would you support doing away with "he" and "she" and instead refer to everyone with the same gender-neutral pronoun? Gender dysphoria is a diagnosable condition in the DSM. Telling a people with dysphoria to "not dislike being misgendered" is kind of like telling a depressed person to "not be sad".

[AirBlaze]

The pronouns "he" and "she" should definitely be used, but only to refer to people based on their sexual characteristics. Not their social characteristics. "She" should refer to someone that can give birth. Edit: Telling someone with dysphoria to "not dislike being misgendered" should be like telling someone to "not be afraid of dragons, as they don't exist."

[CanadianWizardess]

That's....utterly ridiculous. By that standard, many women (and I'm not talking trans women, but women who were assigned female at birth) would have to be called "he". You know about menopause and hysterectomies, right? Not to mention, you would have to *ask every single person you meet* whether they have a functioning uterus before you can call them "she". That's a bit of a hassle.

[AirBlaze]

Sorry, I totally put that wrong! "She" should refer to someone born with two x chromosomes.

[jealoussizzle]

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/01/26/scans-show-difference-in-transgender-brains What is more important when identifying a person what's between their legs or what's in their head? The above article discusses a study that found that trans peoples brains are comparable to that of the opposite sex, not the one they were born. These people have the unbelievable misfortune of finding themselves incompatible with their own body and refusing to accept them for who they are, biologically and demonstrably, and instead substituting what they appear to be is a complete injustice.

[CanadianWizardess]

Great, so now it's even worse: you have to ask someone to get DNA testing done, report the results back to you, and *then* you can call them "he" or "she". [STA-CITE]> Telling someone with dysphoria to "not dislike being misgendered" should be like telling someone to "not be afraid of dragons, as they don't exist. [END-CITE]Can you explain further what you mean here? Are you saying that being misgendered doesn't exist, or that dysphoria doesn't exist?

[evilpenguin234]

Let me nip that one in the bud by mentioning the existence of [XY women](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome), [XX men](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome), [XXY](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome), XO, XXXY, and a myriad of others. And if we want to discuss genitals, there's also plenty of people who are intersexed at birth and exhibit signs of both systems. As well as people who have to have their sexual characteristics removed, such as a woman who gets breast cancer and gets a masectomy, or a man who is in a car accident and loses his penis as a result.

[evilpenguin234]

Re. that edit: Are you claiming that dysphoria doesn't exist? Because that reeks of "well this problem doesn't affect me, so therefore it isn't real"

[AirBlaze]

[STA-CITE]>should be like [END-CITE]I'm claiming it shouldn't exist because the root of the problem (gender) shouldn't exist.

[Amablue]

Gender identity, gender roles, gender expression, and biological sex are all separate things. I'd agree that we'd probably all be better off if gender roles weren't around, but that doesn't have much to do with gender identity, which is what dysphoria affects. Gender dysphoria affects your perception of yourself. If your perception and your reality do not match, it creates stress and depression. Gender identity isn't a social phenomenon like gender roles or gender expression are, it's part of how you're wired.

[CanadianWizardess]

But there's evidence that gender identity is based on neurology. Gender identity != gender roles. The latter is (for the most part) socially constructed; the former is not.

[AirBlaze]

∆ I just learned that gender identity is separate from gender roles. After reading your comment I was skeptical that gender identity wasn't socially constructed at all, [so I looked up that evidence.](http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/12/3115) Apparently, some people feel a natural need to give meaning to which gender they're naturally predisposed to and shouldn't suppress that (as I implied to /u/Chel_of_the_sea.) I feel really dumb, but thanks for helping to fix that. I'm not sure if I should also be putting a delta on /u/Amablue's comment too since it made the same point at basically the same time.

[Amablue]

I won't feel bad if I don't get one, I have plenty as it is. :) For the record though, you can give them out to anyone who changes your view, you're not limited to just one per thread or anything like that.

[Chel_of_the_sea]

If you're interested in further reading, I've written some [substantial walls of text](http://www.reddit.com/r/AirForce/comments/2wxa6q/for_everyone_who_participated_in_the_question/cov4pf7) on the subject.

[evilpenguin234]

I really enjoy your walls of text, they're always well sourced and thought out and make for great educational tools. Which makes sense as I think you're a teacher or grad student teaching or something? In any case I learn more from just browsing your posting history than from anywhere else, which is really nice when I need some quick validation :P

[DeltaBot]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/CanadianWizardess. [^CanadianWizardess's ^delta ^history](/r/ChangeMyView/wiki/user/canadianwizardess) ^| [^delta ^system ^explained](/r/ChangeMyView/wiki/DeltaBot)

[stevegcook]

Could you explain your current understanding of what it means when a trans person says they want to be "treated like a man?" As in, exactly what that would entail. I suspect this is part of the reason it doesn't make sense to you, but I'd like to hear your view on it first before potentially disagreeing with you about it.

[AirBlaze]

Being "treated like a man" could mean a lot of things. Some people might see it as getting better wages, or more respect in the workplace. Others might think it means they're expected to "man up" and power through problems. Men aren't expected to wear skirts. Stuff like that.

[CanadianWizardess]

Could you be more specific about how this applies to trans people?

[AirBlaze]

Trans people shouldn't have to make the distinction about whether people should expect them to wear skirts or not by saying "I'm a he" or "I'm a she."

[Chel_of_the_sea]

Most of us agree with that statement, and many of us fight quite tirelessly for it. That being said, wanting to abolish the *enforcement* of gender roles on unwilling targets is entirely another matter than embracing something meaningful to yourself. I'm perfectly well aware that "skirts are feminine" is an arbitrary social construct, and I'd never tell (or even imply) that a woman must do so. But that doesn't mean I don't like wearing them as an outward expression of internal womanhood. Let me give an analogy that may clear things up. Sexuality and love are obviously not social constructs (although how we categorize them might be). I think we can agree that a couple should not be *forced* to go out together on Valentine's, and that going out on Valentine's is an entirely arbitrary ritual. But that does not mean that individual couples cannot find it meaningful and enjoy celebrating it together.

[AirBlaze]

I like the way you put that clearly. I'd be fine with trans people giving meaning to gender if it didn't directly counteract us fighting tirelessly to take away meaning from it. It's good that you like wearing skirts as an expression of internal womanhood, but wouldn't that get devalued if men were to do the same? Then your outward expression of womanhood could create a conflict or at least some negative feelings. Giving meaning to the things that divide us can be painful.

[Chel_of_the_sea]

[STA-CITE]> I'd be fine with trans people giving meaning to gender if it didn't directly counteract us fighting tirelessly to take away meaning from it. [END-CITE]I think you'd be better off fighting to stop *enforcing* it. [STA-CITE]> It's good that you like wearing skirts as an expression of internal womanhood, but wouldn't that get devalued if men were to do the same? [END-CITE]No. Whether they do it has no bearing on what it means to me. Does other couples going out on Valentines' detract from going out with your date? [STA-CITE]> Giving meaning to the things that divide us can be painful. [END-CITE]I don't think I divide anyone who wasn't already divided by wearing a skirt.