WMN: t3_3c4cgb_t1_css4koj

[TITLE]

CMV:Patriotism is intrinsicly bad.

[mormotomyia]

I believe that it is bad for humans generally that we have patriotism. It leads not only to discrimination. (hello Mr Trump) But also to economic and political difficulties and misstrust. It prevents not only people from accepting everyone as their partner in human, but also causes hatred and sometimes war between nations or ethnic groups. I dont mean that partriotism is worse than no patriotism, but that as a concept and as an element we experience all the time it it in itself bad for us. (Intrinsic badness versus comparative badness) Without patriotism we could form one great community and society. This is prevented by prejudice against others and arrogance about themselves, partiotism conveys. _____ > *Hello, users of CMV! This is a footnote from your moderators. We'd just like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please remember to* ***[read through our rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules)***. *If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which,* ***[downvotes don't change views](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/guidelines#wiki_upvoting.2Fdownvoting)****! If you are thinking about submitting a CMV yourself, please have a look through our* ***[popular topics wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/populartopics)*** *first. Any questions or concerns? Feel free to* ***[message us](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/changemyview)***. *Happy CMVing!*

[no_en]

I think it helps to distinguish patriotism from nationalism. Patriotism could be defined as allegiance to the best hopes and ideals of your country. Nationalism is often merely a knee-jerk "my country right or wrong" reactionary feeling. Given those two definitions I could find myself supporting patriotism. Like everything else there would be some blurring of the lines but you're going to have that regardless.

[mormotomyia]

As soon as you make the distinction "we" and "they" you antagonized people only for not being part of your country.

[no_en]

I don't believe that under the more enlightened definition of Patriotism I necessarily have to alienate people who are non-citizens of my home nation. At least as long as the ideals I espouse are universal in scope they should apply to everyone. So I would praise my home nation for it's adherence to democracy, or criticize it for failing to live up to that ideal. I would then wish that all people could enjoy that ideal or even praise foreign nations that did it better while still claiming I am patriotic. I think.... maybe that works... off the top of my head here.

[mormotomyia]

I can see the benefits for your own nation in this example. But I can see problems when it comes to comparing foreign nations. Your expectations cannot be matched and in times when others ( not necessarily you) start antagonizing other nations you are much more willing to join this opinion. I am saying that the possible detriment caused by Patriotism outweigh the benefits.

[Slobotic]

I think you're confusing patriotism with nationalism. Nationalism is the belief that your nation is better and more deserving than other nations. It is a form of prejudice, and at the root of philosophies like manifest destiny. Patriotism is the belief that our nation binds us in collective self interest and that serving that purpose is as or more important than individual self interest. The idea that we are in this together and that our common wealth should be protected by all of us, even on occasions when we might be personally disinterested but other citizens would be harmed. It is a form of camaraderie. This might be a semantic difference. I wouldn't try to change your mind about nationalism but I would urge you not to confuse it with patriotism. Because we are bound by a government whose mandate is to be a government of, by, and for the people, we should care about and be willing to serve as not just the tools of that government, but also its conscience. That is why opposing and speaking against acts of the state which you find unconscionable is as patriotic as anything.

[looks_at_lines]

Do you care about and trust your family? Your neighbors? People with the same values? Patriotism need not necessarily mean belief in your own country's superiority. It can mean an appreciation of the community around you.

[jxz107]

I do agree that patriotism has the potential to get out of hand, and turn into something nasty like nationalism. That being said, I would like to put South Korea as an example. Patriotism instilled the belief that the nation's self interest was more important than individual interests. This allowed us to recover quickly from the 1997 IMF bailout. And before that, it allowed the people to work so hard that it turned a war torn, dirt poor country into one of the largest economic powers and one of the most developed countries in Asia. Korea has a lot of problems involving nationalism, such as racism towards migrants and tensions with its neighbors, but without it I doubt we could have achieved the development we see today. [STA-CITE]>Without patriotism we could form one great community and society. This is prevented by prejudice against others and arrogance about themselves, partiotism conveys [END-CITE]I don't see the logic in this. Racist White Americans do not view African Americans as "non Americans", just as subhuman. In the case of racial, religious and other issues, the idea that "our country is more important/better/superior to others" doesn't really apply here. Internal conflicts within countries based on race, class, gender, religion and others will always occur.

[Finsternis]

There is a big difference between patriotism and arrogance. Sure, patriotism is bad if you think it means that the only your country is great, but that means all other countries are inferior. If, however, you think your country is great and other countries are also great, that's the major difference. Do I think America is a great country? Yes, I do. But I also think that doesn't mean we are above any other country, or that there are no other great countries. I'm really proud of the variety of cultures we have in America. We can have Irish holidays, Italian holidays, and so on where everyone can be proud without looking down on others. I am only sad that some cultures don't have their own celebrations, like the Polish, the Germans, South Americans, or from wherever else.

[The4thRabbitt]

While I'm no fan of patriotism, I believe it's and outdated and irrational form of pride, calling it "intrinsically bad" is too strong. Patriotism has served the purpose in history to unify and inspire solidarity between people groups that might otherwise resort to violent conflict if they didn't share a national identity.

[Crushgaunt]

Note: I think it's safe to say that you are actually trying to describe *tribalism*. Tibalism isn't intrinsically bad but rather doesn't work well in the society we currently profess to be interested in creating. By itself it is a beneficial adaptation and an extension of empathy towards one's kin.

[learhpa]

I don't think patriotism is well defined enough in your post for it to be possible to engage with it meaningfully. :) What is patriotism, to you?

[LitrallyTitler]

Here's at least one situation where patriotism (maybe it's called nationalism too) is good. If your country is at war, then patriotism would provide a stream of young men willing to go fight it, and the citizens of the country willing to make sacrifices for their country instead of emigrating. It would unite people strongly.

[mormotomyia]

Point being: If there was no nationalism, patriotism in the first place you would not have war with two nations over a topic where patriotism is important. Lets take the 2. WW. Ofc did patriotism help the allies defeat the germans. But if there were no nationalism in Germany in the first place there would not have been war. In the war between Persia (Iran) and Iraq over religious differences the religious similarities within each states formed the bond that gave them power Not being united, because Iraq isnt united as a people.

[tehzeroFIN]

And nationalism here in Finland pretty much helped us become what we are now. And it sure did help when one of the great allies attacked us.

[LitrallyTitler]

I would say that once a war was declared, patriotism comes into play, what do you mean if the war wasn't over a "topic where patriotism is important". Not only that, there are wars even without patriotism being the cause so it's not only ever a negative. Iran wasn't united by patriotism because the people weren't patriots, they already had deep divides in their country which split them up. If they hadn't had those issues I think they would have definitely been more united.

[Slobotic]

Patriotism and nationalism are not the same things at all. A patriot would support an act of war he found moral and justified and would do what he can to defend and serve his country in a time of need. A nationalist would support a war that would provide a favorable outcome for his country, even if it were a totally unjustifiable and immoral war of conquest which caused far more death and suffering on people of other lands than benefit. But yeah they both serve purposes.

[LitrallyTitler]

Yeah, I should look up the definition for patriotism. Still you've painted into in a way that patriotism is only good while nationalism can be good and bad. That can't be accurate, right?

[Slobotic]

That's how I see it. That's why we have two different words. Patriotism is service of your country and nationalism is belief in the superiority of your country.

[RustyRook]

All patriotism isn't "RAH! RAH! I LOVE MY COUNTRY!" It can also be a way for a citizen to demand accountability from a government and its institutions. A patriotic person has a stake in the country and may seek to advance the country as a whole. [STA-CITE]> Without patriotism we could form one great community and society. This is prevented by prejudice against others and arrogance about themselves, partiotism conveys. [END-CITE]There are many other things that divide us: race, religion, language, etc. Simply removing even the most idiotic form of patriotism will not immediately bring us together.

[mormotomyia]

[STA-CITE]> A patriotic person has a stake in the country and may seek to advance the country as a whole. [END-CITE]Which is a concering point. Why would you seek advancement only for few and not for all?

[RustyRook]

[STA-CITE]> Why would you seek advancement only for few and not for all? [END-CITE]I'd like to turn this around on you: Why should they seek advancement for all not just for themselves? Humans act in their own self interest. Besides, progress comes piece-by-piece. Could you tell me what, in your opinion, would change your view? What kind of proof are you looking for?

[mormotomyia]

Yes. But this does not imply patriotism. Patriotism in fact is a form of social behaviour where you seek something to be for others AND you. Not primarily for you. Which is not intrinsicly bad. If we would live in a *pure* capitalist world. There would be no patriotism. Because it diminishes the possible profits. We do not. So if we seek comradeship with others. If we seek security and wealth to be shared by others and pride us for it. Wouldnt it be better if we shared this privilege with everyone not only a few? An argument that does show an intrinsic advantage over a world without patriotism.

[RustyRook]

[STA-CITE]> Patriotism in fact is a form of social behaviour where you seek something to be for others AND you. Not primarily for you. Which is not intrinsicly bad. [END-CITE]Thinking just of oneself isn't intrinsically bad either, and you shouldn't think of it that way. Thinking only of one's own self may result in less well-being overall, but that does not make it "bad." Perhaps less preferable. [STA-CITE]> Wouldnt it be better if we shared this privilege with everyone not only a few? [END-CITE]Yes, it would. It's July 4, but have you donated to the Against Malaria Foundation? Do you think it's wrong for the people who have played a part in making their own society successful to celebrate and show their patriotism? My point is that you can do both.

[RU_Crazy]

Patriotism can lead to good and bad things. You've laid out the bad things but are ignoring the good. If someone is patriotic they may be more willing to help out in their communities or help the homeless. They might see a value to helping children or their neighbors. They may just plain try harder at life since they feel there is some value to their efforts. I think we get caught up in this idea of an interconnected globalized world but the truth is 99.999% of people can have no effect on thing globally. What the average person can do is affect their local community in a positive way. And a patriotic person is more likely to help his community.

[Morphion]

Do you believe every culture has the same ideals as you? Like holding women in the same regard as men? Communism or capitalism, democracy? If there are cultures you do not agree with, do you want to live there? If you don't and you think your cultures ideals are better and want it to remain that way then you are patriot/nationalist whatever name you like.

[Doctor_Worm]

I feel like this is inevitably going to turn into a semantic argument about what the definition of patriotism is and isn't. Can you clarify what exactly *you* mean by it?

[janedoethefirst]

Is there a difference between patriotism and nationalism?

[Doctor_Worm]

Yes, though different people have slightly different interpretations of what they mean. [Source 1](http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-nationalism-and-patriotism/) [Source 2](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fopinions%2Fnationalism-vs-patriotism%2F2014%2F02%2F23%2F9129d43a-9afc-11e3-8112-52fdf646027b_story.html&ei=7hmZVdrUD4P8-AGxtpKIDQ&usg=AFQjCNEMLXL9kS0oeowX3-slbW_d2d_lgA&sig2=Wh4h8OPANOsypvDes64s6w&bvm=bv.96952980,d.cWw) [Source 3](http://nationalinterest.org/blog/paul-pillar/patriotism-versus-nationalism-america-5568)

[mormotomyia]

Every idea or ideal that our country is more important, better and superior to others. Every action against other countries only due to them not being your country. Every action to belittle other countries. Along those lines.

[pudgypenguin22]

If you define it like that, I don't think it's possible to argue it against it. You've defined patriotism with blind, unwavering beliefs of superiority. These beliefs will eventually run contrary to fact and ignoring fact is almost always a bad thing.

[Slobotic]

Yeah, that's nationalism not patriotism, although they are not mutually exclusive.

[Doctor_Worm]

I'm not sure that anybody can make a compelling argument that those particular things are good. I think the issue here is that people who think patriotism is good are referring to something qualitatively different than what you're referring to.

[mormotomyia]

I can think of better reasons to appreciate the society than just because in your sem country

[Doctor_Worm]

Fine, but just because better reasons exist doesn't mean it's intrinsically bad. There are better reasons to appreciate people than just because they're in your family, but that doesn't mean appreciating your family is a bad thing. Likewise, patriotism -- the way people who say it's good define it -- is just another sense of personal attachment to people you share something in common with. Sometimes other things have to take moral precedence over those attachments, and sometimes some people can take those attachments too far, but none of that makes the attachments *intrinsically* bad. It just means people have to be reasonable about it like everything else in life.

[Fortyonekeks]

I'm confused. You're saying that that patriotism may be better than no patriotism, but that no patriotism would be one great community and society? Fear and prejudice are not the products of patriotism, they're a fact of being human. Our minds are not and never will be unbiased, but patriotism helps. Patriotism is what lets us accept anyone as our partner in being human, in my opinion. Patriotism is what lets us say that we like the other Americans, the other Germans, etc--society without patriotism is not one great society, but no society, because without some belief in the groups that we are a part of, why would we be a member of them? One global society is universal human patriotism, not it's removal, and the removal or patriotism is no society at all, something where whom we associate with is based solely on those prejudices, rather than the other way around.

[mormotomyia]

∆ take it. If you for the argument this way: that you can be proud of the fact that you are part of -not a country- but the world. Or its society. This still doesnt prevent people from using or abusing Patriotism for vicious and horrible things.

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[RustyRook]

[Here's a flag for you](http://www.flagofplanetearth.com/#intro-shift).

[Fortyonekeks]

But attacking patriotism because it's used as an excuse isn't going after the problem. Desiring safety and national security has led to as much if not more hate and atrocities than patriotism. Bad people will always find excuses to do bad things, and going after those excuses will do nothing but force them to find different ones. Police brutality, for example, has been a fact throughout history, and at times it's been allowed for the police, excused by racism, excuses by fear of some idealogy, or excuses as protecting the officers: but people who defend it will never choose to use an excuse that's not popular at the time. The same goes for all the prejudice and hate excuses by patriotism.