WMN: t3_3dm0ik_t1_ct6xb6a

[TITLE]

CMV: League of Legends has the most boring and the least competitive circuit from all major eSport titles

[maurosQQ]

So, I hope this CMV is not to specific for this sub, but I dont see this discussion working in the main LoL subreddits without getting downvoted into oblivion. The current structure of League of Legends is that there are Leagues in the 5 major regions (EU, NA, KR, CN, Taiwan) and they meet two to three times a year for some international competition. The international competiton usually consists of a third-party tournament, the IEM World Championship, and two Riot organised events, the Mid Season Invitational and the Riot World Championship (the "real" worlds). Of these three only the Riot Worlds is the only really big tournament, with 16 teams and a good playoffs and group stage format. MSI features only the best team of each region and the IEM World Championship uses Bo1 groups into Bo3 in the first playoff bracket, which is often criticised as too random for the title. The league structure in all major regions is usually divided into a spring and a summer league with a regular season of 18-40 games or so, followed by playoffs to see determine who the best teams in the region are. In the other major eSport titles (Dota, SC2, CSGO) you have * way more tournaments in general * way more international competition in general * more important games, as you have more playoff situation This all leads to my opinion that LoL eSports has the most boring circuit, as the majority of the matches that are being played are low impact matches in the regular season and only in domestic competition. **Edit:** I would appreciate if you help me understand some of the arguments that you apparently think brushed aside. All I see is that you downvoted me, without really understanding why. I would really appreciate if you be patient with me and make me understand what excactly I am missing that should change my view. **Edit2** Thanks to everyone who was patient with me and argued even if I didnt seem to get your point. I have some more stuff to think and while my view wasnt really changed I got some stuff to think about. Maybe I will come back in the near future with some of the core issues I see now clearer which are the basis for my view. Good Night everybody! **Edit3** Since this is over eSport lets make some shameless plug: There are atm tournaments going on: http://www.twitch.tv/faceittv This is the faceit final at Dreamhack Valencia with CS:GO, where some of the best team battle for a prizepool of 150,000 $ http://www.twitch.tv/dreamhacksc2 This is the Dreamhack Valencia tournament for SC2 with a prizepool of 25.000 $ And while I dont have a link ready atm, there is also the IEM Shenzen in SC2 going on with some of the greatest players from Korea, also competing for a prizepool of 25.000$. _____ > *Hello, users of CMV! This is a footnote from your moderators. We'd just like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please remember to* ***[read through our rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules)***. *If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which,* ***[downvotes don't change views](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/guidelines#wiki_upvoting.2Fdownvoting)****! If you are thinking about submitting a CMV yourself, please have a look through our* ***[popular topics wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/populartopics)*** *first. Any questions or concerns? Feel free to* ***[message us](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/changemyview)***. *Happy CMVing!*

[smxfirehawk]

My opinions of eSports in general is this. I personally don't give a rip about professional teams, players, or competitions. I think they're a goddamn joke. I would like to see more official "small fry" tournaments that are offered by chance, buy in (that's right), random selection, or top X% of each ranking. That INCLUDES bronze. Victorious gaming has done a damn good job of coordinating such events. Why can't Riot get in on the action? If they already have, please disregard this post. I haven't played league in 6-8 months.

[Drachus]

So after reading a bit, I think I can see the big problem - you've asked to have your view changed on something completely subjective. Sure we can argue with you about what makes an interesting and dynamic competitive scene, but in the end you might just have different preferences than other people - and by the looks of it that's the case. You prefer climates with frequent international involvement rather than regional tournaments leading into a grand international finale, where the majority of people I see trying to change your view prefer the opposite. So, to try and change your view, I'll leave you with this: Maybe rather than considering it "the most boring" period, you just think of it as the eSports climate that matches your interests least. Judging by the amount of LoL players opposed to other games (I'm sure there's more people on LoL than CS:GO), LoL is statistically **more** interesting than other games since it interests more people. So unless you're looking at it like that, "most boring" is really only a statement that applies to you - which would mean the climate is plenty interesting, you're just not interested in it yourself.

[phoenixrawr]

The League system is very good for helping viewers become invested in the teams that are competing and follow storylines throughout the year. One of the problems I've always had watching tournaments in a game like Dota is that there are a bunch of no-name teams in them that you've probably never heard of and that makes it hard to care about who wins. There might be more tournaments but the vast majority of them are just random noise and the results don't really matter in the long run. This is taken from a [blog post written by a pro player](http://www.liquiddota.com/blogs/473477-my-perspective-on-%EF%BC%A4%EF%BD%8F%EF%BD%94%EF%BC%A1%EF%BC%92): [STA-CITE]>First off THERE ARE TOO MANY TOURNAMENTS SO NO ONE GIVES A FUCK. Honestly if even the pros don't give a fuck about their match, how can the viewers? Remember that time coL beat EG? Me and RTZ had a conversation regarding that match it went like this: [END-CITE][STA-CITE]>EternaLEnVy: How'd you lose to complexity? [END-CITE][STA-CITE]>Arteezy: LMFAO wHo cAREAS HAHA Xd [END-CITE]>Honestly this is a really shitty situation. Winning a bo3 2-0 against a top team of the world should mean something. It should mean that coL is a new rising team, and viewers should be excited. And that they should be really happy with their team's progress. But instead we just get a situation where its hard to tell whether the match had any meaning.

[maurosQQ]

How is this any different from a random upset in LCS? And as I allready said, to many tournaments arent optimal either, but still more exciting to watch than very little tournaments.

[phoenixrawr]

I don't see how it's exciting to watch a bunch of teams you don't know or care about play in a tournament that doesn't matter at all. Tournaments for the sake of tournaments isn't interesting. Upsets in LCS aren't considered to be a huge deal in the long run, people get hyped in the post-game threads and then it sort of goes away. However, the regular season still gives rise to a lot of interesting storylines. Cloud 9's decline is a huge point of discussion right now for example. It's much harder to have that when you don't know 90% of the teams, which is why Dota only has a small handful of household names (about the same nubmer that League has) even though it has far more teams and far more tournaments.

[maurosQQ]

You dont know how it is exciting to watch the best teams in the world compete with each other to determine who is the best? Isnt that pretty much the point of any sport? I know nothing about Dota and dont follow it, but even I could list 10 dota teams atm. I guess somebody following the scene knows more. And why are 10 teams to follow to few? Thats a perfectly fine number.

[Levitz]

[STA-CITE]> You dont know how it is exciting to watch the best teams in the world compete with each other to determine who is the best? Isnt that pretty much the point of any sport? [END-CITE]Consider TI4 in DotA A bunch of people barely anyone rooted for won and it was disgraceful and boring, the very finals being especially boring since people already knew how the games were going to roll out. It was the antithesis of exciting and not entertaining at all. Even the commentators were disappointed.

[phoenixrawr]

But they're not really determining who the best team is in most of these tournaments. I recommend going back and looking at EternalEnvy's blog post, most of the time you can't really take anything away from these games because teams are so tired and stressed from having so many tournaments to compete in that they can't give their best performance. If there are only 10 teams worth following out of hundreds of teams and tournaments then you could simplify the entire thing and just make those 10 teams the ones in the spotlight. That's basically how LCS works.

[maurosQQ]

No, you usually cant determine who is the best team based on one tournament (except its a big one, where all teams train for it), but you can make judging in way easier. Why do you think the LoLeSports powerrankings are such a joke? Because there is simply no basis to them. Nobody competes each other outside of their region and thus making it incredbily hard to rank teams at all. And no, this is not how LCS works at all. LCS takes not the 10 best teams in the world, it takes the 10 best team in a region and lets them play way to many games to determine who are the top 6, followed then by actually only a couple of games to determine who is actually the best. If LCS would be like OGN used to be, this alone would make the whole thing less boring and more competitive.

[celticguy08]

I think something you have overlooked is the increased production value in the LCS. I see it as a huge step forward for Esports and it is completely understandable to have the LCS running for less time during the year because of the costs as compared to something like SC2 where they just need two computers, rather than 10. Judging by the discussion that has happened in this thread, it seems like your view can't be changed because you have chosen to prioritize certain aspects of other Esport's circuits over League of Legend's as more important. I just hope you realize there are more factors into these decisions than you are giving credit.

[maurosQQ]

While I agree that the LCS has increased production value and gave stability to the scene I think other formats could do this aswell AND be more exciting and more competitive as they feature more BoX series. A GSL/SSL or OGN like format for example has a similar (if maybe not even better production value?), but is more competitive and has more exciting matches.

[Ebilpigeon]

The advantage of the League system is that it means more teams get the opportunity to play competitively. Tournaments provide intense moments but don't give exposure to anyone except the best few teams. Look at some of the most popular teams in league of legends: Unicorns of Love, CLG, Gambit. None of these guys are favourites in regional tournaments, let alone full on international ones. Without the league system none of these much loved sides would get exposure.

[maurosQQ]

I know that the league system is better for your average joe proplayer, but I honestly dont care that much. Id rather see teams play in a BoX series and then go out and maybe leading to them disbanding instead of having to watch them play 18 meaningless games I dont really care about.

[iamPause]

Except the games aren't meaningless. The games decide who gets to play in the big tournaments. The only difference is that the winners takes a few months to be decided rather than three days.

[maurosQQ]

Sure they are not all completly meaningless. But for example Fnatic atm cant get anymore worse than 1. place. The rest of their games now dont matter anymore.

[iamPause]

Might not matter to them, but still can matter a lot to the opponents.

[Ebilpigeon]

Your way you never get a stable team to follow, outside of maybe the top two or three. For many people half the fun of sports/esports is supporting someone. My point was that those games aren't meaningless for the large number of people who support those teams. They get to see their team struggle, learn and improve over time ina way that you don't get with tournaments because you only really see the teams that are at their best

[maurosQQ]

Thats simply not true. In the other eSport titles players and teams are able to make a stable living without being top 2 or 3. Just look at how many people play in SC2 who have no chance every winning anything meaningful.

[Ebilpigeon]

There are 40+ fully professional teams in league of legends. Not counting Brazil, SEA and Taiwan because I don't know about them. There are also professional second tier teams in China, Korea, NA and Eu. So there are 200 definite pros, plus 100+ in the second tier and other regions, I doubt there are anywhere near that many full time professionals in starcraft.

[maurosQQ]

1. SC2 is singleplayer and not 5vs5, naturally there will be less. 2. You said nobody besides top 2 or top 3 would be stable, which isnt true. Are there less in other eSports? Yes, but does it matter if its 50 teams or 20 teams? Not really, as nearly nobody cares about anybody beneath top 20 anyways.

[Korwinga]

[STA-CITE]> Yes, but does it matter if its 50 teams or 20 teams? Not really, as nearly nobody cares about anybody beneath top 20 anyways. [END-CITE]I'll preface this by saying that I don't follow eSports much at all, though I do play LoL. I don't think this is true at all. Just looking at regular sports, people will still root for their home team over whichever team is number 1 or whatever. And people always love a good underdog story. Having a large pool of teams that play against each other keeps people excited.

[maurosQQ]

People can have hometeams when there is only 20 teams aswell. In other sports teams are bound to one city, which is not the case in eSports as they are usually only assosicated with a region or a country. And having to look at the 48th best team play the 32th best team isnt exciting at all. Upsets can happen when there are less teams aswell. In SC2 a foreigern just beat the regining GSL and SSL champion, its not like these kind of circuits prevent something like this from happening.

[Ebilpigeon]

1. Then why did you bring it up a sa counterpoint to me saying that league supports more players? 2. using the lolesports power rankings as evidence, plenty of people care about teams outside of the top 20 listed. They really do matter - UoL, CLG, Gambit

[maurosQQ]

1. I just said this because that was a noncomparable case in general. 2. I can see how people that are fans of bad teams find more fun in the LoL circuit, because these teams might have to disband in another circuit that doesnt support low-level teams so much. This doesnt change my view, but gives one argument against my view and offers a perspective that I havent had yet. So I award you a ∆ for the new perspective.

[DeltaBot]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Ebilpigeon. ^[[History](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/Ebilpigeon)] ^[[Wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltabot)][[Code](https://github.com/alexames/DeltaBot)][/r/DeltaBot]

[dildospaceboota]

Well if you think it's boring that is simply your opinion. I mean I find America's Got Talent boring, and NASCAR, and the NFL. I think they're all boring as shit and if I try watching for more than an hour I fall asleep. There isn't a single fact that's going to change your mind. I watch the LCS, LCK, LPL, and Challenger Series because I'm passionate about League and I have a blast playing/watching the game. If you don't give two shits about League, well, then yeah it's boring. This CMV is neither interesting nor useful because you're simply asking "make me think this isn't boring". You know what? Make me like your favorite food. Make me as interested in your favorite video game or TV show. Do you see why this doesn't work?

[maurosQQ]

You dont understand. I love League of Legends and find it incredibly entertaining. I just think that the LoL circuit/structure is the most boring of the major eSports.

[Bluezephr]

The way I see it, all three systems have huge flaws, but I don't think LOL is definitely the worst. Let's look at SC2 first (this is my favorite game, and the only one I'm interested in continuing to play, so I may be a little biased) * unclear direction in WCS, GSL(and its involvement with WCS), and the general lack of tournaments that have been happening due to the drop in popularity is not doing too well * koreans always win everything, so all events are centralized in korea, but you do burn out as a fan because you have no one local to relate too * extremely slow to change any system in place There are good things though: * proleague format is amazing * shorter games means we can have longer BoX * lots of differing tournament structures so you can really see rivalries appear Then we have Dota. Dota doesn't even need a list, because its greatest strength is also its greatest weakness. TI5. TI5 is an awesome tournament, that everyone is extremely excited for and will likely be awesome even if the finals are shit again. There's a ton of hype, a giant prize pool and its just great... Except that pre and post TI are a wasteland for tournaments. compared to TI, every tournament feels like its run in a garage. anything pre-TI is going to have players not giving their all and hiding strategies because its way more important to save it for TI, and even then the prize pool is too big. It's large enough that there's little intensive for the winners to keep playing their all and win another one aside from personal achievement. League doesn't really have either of those problems, and has the advantage of consistency, stability, and probably the best treatment of players in terms of the LCS system(in terms of the players treating it like an actual job). While things don't get as big as TI, they have a more well paced events that are probably a more healthy sustainable level of hype. The Big drawback from what I understand is that because of the way worlds is set up, you don't get to see a lot of rivalries develop, but I do hear my league friends get hyped up for tournaments probably more frequently than the other two games. I apologize for not commenting on CS:GO. From what I understand, it's possibly the best? I don't know much about the scene or tournament structure TBH, but I only ever hear good things about CS.

[maurosQQ]

People in LoL get hyped for every tournament because they simply are so rare. Between tournaments competitive LoL is stuck in endless Leagues with many, many shit matches. LoL is the eSports where you see the least good competition. You want to know who the best team in the world is? Nobody freaking knows because the best teams in the world dont even play each other regularly. In SC2 you have GSL, SSL, Kespa Cups, Blizzcon, WCS where the best players compete in BoX series against each other to determine the winner. Plus there are still third party tournaments like Dreamhack, IEMs and HSC where you can watch good competition. CS:GO is similar. Some majors and lots of semi-major tournaments in between. You see the best teams play each other all the time. Dota2 I actually know the least, but since they seem to have a similar circuit like CS:GO but with a huge tournament at the end. There are many meaningful international competition like ESL One, Asian Championship, The Summit, TI5 etc.

[combat_muffin]

If you're finding a new world's best team every other week, is it really that prestigious a title? The fact that there aren't many international events means that the ones LoL does have are extremely exciting. If there's international play every week, it becomes old hat

[maurosQQ]

You can still have a ranking in tournaments. That what happens in other eSports aswell. You have the majors in CS:GO, the Blizzcon in SC2 and the International in Dota, but besides that you have other important international matches aswell. And I didnt talk about every week, but please more than 3 times a year.

[Portal007]

Dota 2 just had a huge tournament back in June. The Wasteland surrounding TI isn't really true anymore. Especially with the Fall Major around the corner. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/ESL_One/Frankfurt/2015 https://www.dota2.com/majors/ I think Dota probably has the best pro scene to watch at this point. Perhaps CSGO, its a close call between those two. League is too stale and their current format outside of China leads to boring games with way too much downtime between matches.

[Tuokaerf10]

[STA-CITE]> I apologize for not commenting on CS:GO. From what I understand, it's possibly the best? I don't know much about the scene or tournament structure TBH, but I only ever hear good things about CS. [END-CITE]It has its good and bad moments. It's good from the fact there isn't just one large organization controlling the game, tournaments, leagues, and community around it. While VALVE is occasionally involved from a monetary standpoint, they've been pretty hands off beyond providing prize money, transportation costs, weapon cases/stickers that benefit the teams, technical assistance, and paid transport qualifiers in association with other organizations (ESL, DreamHack). The scene is also growing exponentially, from the amount of players in game (it's skyrocketed over the past 18 months), number of events, and ever increasing prize money (most major tournaments are $250k+, and numerous ones occur over the year). While The International and such have larger prize pools, there's more big tournaments over the year for CS which gives more opportunity for the top 3-4 teams to win a big one (which is what usually happens, over the past 18 months 4 different teams won a Major). This means that it's a giant hodgepodge of organizations hosting leagues and tournaments. This is awesome from a standpoint that almost every week or weekend there's something going on. The problem is that quality varies greatly, from poor broadcast quality ,production issues, bad host/caster talent, bad accommodations for the players, bad spectator experiences, etc. There's a big discussion right now for a desire to get some sort of body to set some standards that should be followed for a good player, live spectator, casting/host talent, and home viewer experience.

[BaneFlare]

CS:GO seems to suffer from the "garage tournament" effect even more often that Dota 2 in my experience.

[OmniOmega]

You're really conflicted about what you actually want. You want more tournaments. But then complain that the matches in the regular season are low impact because there are too many of them. You complain that tournaments are too random. The solution to randomness is more matches, which you already said you don't want because it devalues each match. Let me put it this way. Rarity and stakes dictates how much impact any one match has. If you have one chance to prove you're better than your next door neighbor, big woop. No one cares either way. If a big name has a whole bunch of chances to show that they are better than another big name, then each chance carries less weight as there are so many more chances. If two big names have a single chance to prove which one is superior, then that single chance carries a huge amount of weight. It's a tradeoff. You can't have a ton of high impact matches/tournament all the time. It doesn't work that way because the more matches/tournament you have, the less each individual match matters. I think League of Legends's Esports scene handles this balance well. You have a regular season of many matches over a long period of time and a wide variety of patches. This allows teams that are consistent and capable of adapting to rise to the top. Then you have a couple of extremely high profile tournaments where you throw the top teams into the pressure cooker where they're playing against teams and metas they aren't as familiar with. The stakes are high because the randomness is high and one wrong move in one game can send you home. TL;DR: "Weight and randomness" and "number of occasions and consistency" are at odds with each other. You can't have both. It's a trade-off.

[maurosQQ]

[STA-CITE]>You want more tournaments. But then complain that the matches in the regular season are low impact because there are too many of them [END-CITE]I dont necessarily want more tournament. The most important thing is more meaningful games between the best teams in the world. Tournaments are the means to achieve this probably the easiest. [STA-CITE]>You complain that tournaments are too random. [END-CITE]Where did I state that? [STA-CITE]>You have a regular season of many matches over a long period of time and a wide variety of patches. This allows teams that are consistent and capable of adapting to rise to the top. [END-CITE]The problem I have with this that the regular season doesnt matter much besides if you make it to playoffs or not. The only thing that really counts (as in you get seeding for higher tournaments and price money) are the playoffs. It doesnt matter if you get 3rd or 6th in the regular season, you dont get any benefit for this. Tournaments have naturally higher impact as if you lose you are going home instantly. This adds pressure and impact to the matches. Now every match is important and you cant afford to lose regularly, but turn it around at the end of the season.

[OmniOmega]

[STA-CITE]>The most important thing is more meaningful games between the best teams in the world. [END-CITE]Please see the original post regarding the trade-off between "more" and "meaningful". By having more competitions you decrease the meaning of each competition. In the context of League of Legends, each encounter will be less interesting as the meta from region to region will vary less and less as they meet more often. > the IEM World Championship uses Bo1 groups into Bo3 in the first playoff bracket, which is often criticised as too random for the title.

[maurosQQ]

Ah, now I understand what you meant. Good point, but I dont think this is necessarily an inconsistency. I think the LoL circuit is more boring because most matches are simply regular season matches. These matches only determine which 6 out of 10 teams go to the playoffs. Then the playoffs come around and now teams play playoff matches, where a loss means instantly being out of the tournament. These matches are more meaningful because fewer matches have a bigger impact. I think there is a missmatch between letting every team play 18 matches to decided the 6th best from 10 and then only play a Bo5 to determine the top 4 from the top 6 and then one more Bo5 to determine the top2. I think its inherently more exciting to play in a playoff/single elimination, because every loss could be the one that kicks them out of the tournament, where as season games are dont have these implications as strong. So you could have more meaningful matches if you would have less or no regular season matches and instead more single elimination matches. For example like OGN used to be.

[Dread70]

You are completely disregarding a very important aspect of the Playoffs system that Riot employs. The bottom two team each split go in to relegation, where they must fight for their right to stay in the LCS. You might not think this is important, but it is very important to the scene and it gives new players a reason to play in the challenger scene. Without this system we would not have Cloud 9, who completely dominated 3 LCS splits. We would not have Origen, who exploded on to the EU scene. We would not have Gravity, who is #1 in NA and giving long time established teams so much trouble. The Playoff system fosters growth amongst players and teams. It is a much easier system to get in to than the other tournament systems, where one mistake can cost the career of a young and growing organization. Instead, we have the challenger circuit where many established teams, such as CLG, TSM, and TL have sponsored challenger teams. Some of these challenger teams, such as first place NA team Gravity(Curse Academy) just needed time to grow and learn. They learned from the Spring Split, made a few changes, now they are a top team.

[OmniOmega]

I see. Unfortunately for you Riot favors consistency and flexibility over clutch situations and cheap thrills. Their regular season ensures that the teams on top are truly the best of their region (something that can only be determined over the course of many matches rather than tournament style play). The tournaments then provide the stakes (only the best teams in the world) and rarity (only occurs a couple of times a year) that give individual matches weight. I think it is a healthy balance. To draw an analogy, think of regular season matches as homework and tournaments as exams. A consistent and flexible student will perform well on the homework. An exam has far more variability. A mediocre student who does poorly on homework can study and cram to get a much better grade on the exam. Similarly a student who does well on homework can perform poorly on an exam due to the added pressure, fall ill, or just have a bad day.

[sokipdx]

Pretty much everyone in this thread has taken OP point-by-point but he/she just continues to redefine what "better" or "boring" or "competitive" means so OP's view will never be changed.

[maurosQQ]

I dont see this. I dont care about "better" because I dont know what attributes makes something "better". And in my aditional post and in other post I stated that the more high-impact matches there are and the more top-tier competition is less boring and more competitive. And in my opinion LoL is the worst circuit for this. So please show me where I contradict myself.

[Tehtime]

I actually think LoL has by far the best circuit. It most resembles an actual sport then any other game: you have regional leagues that run weekly like clockwork, so you have rivalries and stories that develop normally during the season, like any other sport, and then a couple times a year you have huge events that combine them all. Think about soccer. Do you think the world Cup would be as hyped up if it was every year, as opposed to every 4?of course not. Take SC2. Back when HotS came out there was a period where there was a tournament every week, and it was terrible. There was so much going on it was hard to actually care about anything, no one was particularly trying and it was incredibly hard to follow. League has the most stable, consistent format with amazing build up towards a couple of big events. Really the only flaw right now on is BO1s, which they are slowly moving away from. It just seems to me like you want more and more content all the time, but I think it's the balance that counts. One epic event built up to over a year is way better then 5 mediocre events that are not that important.

[maurosQQ]

No, I disagree. Id rather have 5 major events than 1 huge one. Storylines and rivalries can only develope in domestic competiton as international competition is way to scarce. Having the best teams in the world or in a region clash and fight for the crown is ultimately more exciting than having to watch the good teams of a region beat up on the bad teams in a region over and over again.

[Tehtime]

Well then I guess your view can't be changed. You seem to have the time and energy to invest yourself in a lot of tournaments all the time, and that's fair enough. I personally think it is far less interesting because it makes every event significantly less important. So you lost IEM Cologne. Big deal, there's always Dreamhack, IEM Katowice, MLG, WCS, Proleague, Redbull arena......who cares. I don't think international rivalries will develop over 5 tournaments anyway. It's a season-like format that really develops rivalries. For me I always compare e-sports to normal sports and try to see what they do well and what they don't, and I think that the LCS format is the best the e-sports scene has to offer. During the season you have storylines building up, rivalries between domestic teams, speculation about the strength of different regions, and then a couple times a year it's put to the test in a grand even that you know everything that built up towards it. Makes everything more important. One of the things I like about American Football is that there are only 16 games a season and such short playoffs. It makes every game carry so much weight, every rivalry that much more intense. Compared to Baseball where there are hundreds of games a season. So your team lost one. Big deal, there's 90 more games. It's all just makes for much better viewing experience both casually and in general. Much better then when there's a CS:GO or Dota2 tournament and someone's like "yeah it's like the 3rd biggest tournament after TI!" oh yeah? Then who gives a shit.

[maurosQQ]

[STA-CITE]>Compared to Baseball where there are hundreds of games a season. So your team lost one. Big deal, there's 90 more games. [END-CITE]This is excactly my problem with LoLeSports compared to others. [STA-CITE]>You seem to have the time and energy to invest yourself in a lot of tournaments all the time, and that's fair enough. I personally think it is far less interesting because it makes every event significantly less important. [END-CITE]Following LCS + MSI + IEM + Worlds is bigger timedrain than just following 5 majors. [STA-CITE]>I don't think international rivalries will develop over 5 tournaments anyway. It's a season-like format that really develops rivalries. [END-CITE]C9 vs Fnatic? CLG.EU vs M5? CLG vs TSM? KT vs SKT? SSW vs SKT? All these rivalries developed in a tournament based/playoff like format and are usually considered to be the best rivalries that existed in LoLeSports.

[Tehtime]

[STA-CITE]> This is excactly my problem with LoLeSports compared to others. [END-CITE]There aren't that many games in the LCS. Every game is still generally important but not the biggest deal if you miss one. [STA-CITE]> Following LCS + MSI + IEM + Worlds is bigger timedrain than just following 5 majors. [END-CITE]I don't think so. LCS is the only thing going on, and you can casually follow it, watch only the games that are big. IEM Katowice is like a small major, who really cares, just like in the other circuits. Basically just leaves you with Worlds and MSI. Two tournaments once a year that have a big build up towards them (the splits). [STA-CITE]> C9 vs Fnatic? CLG.EU vs M5? CLG vs TSM? KT vs SKT? SSW vs SKT? All these rivalries developed in a tournament based/playoff like format and are usually considered to be the best rivalries that existed in LoLeSports. [END-CITE]C9 vs Fnatic? best rivalry? wat? CLG.EU and M5 are in the same region(were, when they existed. Still are in their current incarnations), CLG and TSM are in the same region, KT and SKT are in the same region, SSW and SKT are in the same region...those things sustain that. Those rivalries obviously start at the head of a big event, but they are sustained through the clashes during the season. You can see it clearly with TSM and CLG and how much importance the teams put on that match. In the end of the day, you prefer a lot of tournaments, that's fine. I like this format a lot more. There's more build up to events, the importance is very focused so that if you don't have time for LCS you can still catch the playoffs, or MSI, or just wait for worlds. It's more consistent and organized in my opinion. One of the things that turned me off of SC2 was just the over saturation of events. I had no idea what's going on, who's playing in what and why, and whether I should even care. I just waited for the MLGs and ignored everything else. If you're a die hard fan and have the time to watch everything, then good for you, but I like it when the structure of the game puts focus on a few big things and gives you the option of following a more consistent format on the way there.

[maurosQQ]

It seems what turned you off about SC2 that you did not really understand the circuit. There is a very distinct order in what are the important and prestigious titles in SC2 and if you would just follow them, there wouldnt be much difference in following LCS. And my point in these rivalries is that none of them developed in a league format, but in tournament based formats. CLG.EU vs M5 for example would have probably existed too if one of the teams would have been from NA. This was merely to counter your point that "seasons-like format develope rivalries", as most of the rivalries in LoLeSport were allready there before season got introduced.

[Tehtime]

Oh I understood it enough. It was a known fact that it was shit, and guys like Incontrol and Day9 talked about this a lot in State of the Game how the format back that was so confusing and that the insane amount of tournaments was bad both because players had no time to really prepare, they just worked their ass off constantly and went to tournaments with no time to experiment. This was a known problem and Blizzard eventually modified it. I don't know to what extent because the game was in such a decline that I don't really know what the end result was exactly, but I know it was simplified (all the MLGs are gone, for example).

[maurosQQ]

Ok, I dont know how it was in the past. But atm you have 3 leauge like tournaments in the GSL, SSL and WCS and some third party tournaments like IEM and Dreamhack to give points. The players with the most points are qualified to Blizzcon, which is basically the best of the best, worlds-like tournament. If you want you can only watch the different major leagues or different tournament or only Blizzcon if you want only the big final clash.

[TheBucher]

It seems like he made really good arguments to your points and you just changed the topic claiming /u/tehtime doesn't understand the SC2 circuit. Rivalries doesn't matter. They happen when 2 teams with large fan bases meet up. Then they are rivals because people hype up the games. Listen. Your arguments are a bit missing the point. Riot chose the format which could spread LoL as a eSport the most. The best to use and the most competitive one. Using LCS teams have to stay competitve troughout the seasion up until worlds where they fianlly get to take a shot at the mega prize. And these choises are made by proffesionals. By people with high salaries. You think that they would make such a mistake by chosing a shittiest circuit style? And just because you don't like it means it's wrong ?

[maurosQQ]

I dont think his arguments concerning SC2 were good. There are similar structures to SC2 than to LoL and his notion that he had no idea what was going on lead me to believe that he had no idea what was going on. Rivalries wasnt my argument it was his. On your last point. Just because Riot structured their eSports with professionals does not mean that the eSport circuit is better. The most competitive circuit is a circuit where the best teams battle against each other for the big price. This happens 1 time in leauge of legends in a year. In every other eSports its happening way more often, ergo other eSports have more competitive circuits.

[Tehtime]

There are many sports in the world that only have one big tournament a year. Some have it once every 4 years! so the NBA, NHL, NFL, Champions league are all not competitive? That makes no sense. It's all about balance of importance. if all the best teams fight each other ALL the time, then no single game is ever important. It's the fact that there is one big thing going on that everyone is building up towards that makes it special. Would you really remember who won the 3rd most important Dota tournament this year 5 years from now? Probably not. Will you remember TI? Probably. so that small tournament had no impact. Winning the LCS is a much bigger deal then any small minor tournament could ever be because it takes good performance over a long time.

[maurosQQ]

[STA-CITE]>Some have it once every 4 years! so the NBA, NHL, NFL, Champions league are all not competitive? [END-CITE]**Less** competitive than if the best teams would play against each other more often in high-pressure single elimination matches. And yes winning the LCS is more important than winning a small ass tournament, but it is more important than winning MSI or the Asian Championship in Dota? Or more important than the Summit? Or ESL One? I doubt it, since the competition in these tournament is more fierce since it is international.

[Canilearnbubblebeam]

No, rivalries was pretty much your argument, you're the one who started with that point and it completely backfired since the biggest rivalries that you mentioned are regional, which are backed by the LCS format that you dislike.

[maurosQQ]

No, /u/tehtime started with the rivalrie argument. [STA-CITE]>I actually think LoL has by far the best circuit. It most resembles an actual sport then any other game: you have regional leagues that run weekly like clockwork, so you have rivalries and stories that develop normally during the season, like any other sport, and then a couple times a year you have huge events that combine them all. [END-CITE]Is what he wrote. And my point was that these rivalries developed under a tournament circuit system and not under a LCS system. So saying that they only develope in a LCS system is wrong.

[pix1414]

I realize your point is for esports, however look at every single major sport in the world. Football, baseball, hockey, and basketball all have a final big game once a year. Also, the most popular sport in the world, soccer, builds up for 4 years to an all important exciting tournament. I think the main issue for you is that you like frequent tournaments and think that those game are important. However, for the majority of people the more frequent the big games are played the less importance they have.

[maurosQQ]

SC:2 and Dota2 have the one big tournament aswell, but along the year still more meaningful competition. CS:GO is a bit different, but they basically follow the Tennis circuit, which is a much watched sport aswell. And for example in soccer you have things like competition in leauges, different international club cups, competition between national teams and so on. And soccer is the most watched sport in the world.

[Aprahamian]

You still have leagues in regions though. MLS teams aren't playing against premier teams every 3 months for a title.

[maurosQQ]

Yes you have leagues, but you have tournaments aswell, which is even better than either or. And what are MLS teams?

[James_Locke]

Major League Soccer.

[XtremeGoose]

[STA-CITE]> look at every single major sport in the world. Football, baseball, hockey, and basketball... [END-CITE]I assume by Football you mean American Football in which case these aren't even close to the biggest sports in the world. Those would be Soccer, Athletics, Cycling, Rugby Union and Cricket. Your examples are pretty poor because there are very few international competitions in your examples since they are all almost uniquely played in north america. My list have major international (both club and countries) tournaments to widely varying degrees.

[nTranced]

Why is this post flaired as "Deltas awarded"? I can't find any from the OP after looking through the comments

[maurosQQ]

I rewarded a Delta here: https://de.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/3dm0ik/cmv_league_of_legends_has_the_most_boring_and_the/ct6ot2p

[dvidsilva]

worst cmv I've seen in a while

[maurosQQ]

Why?

[dvidsilva]

You seemed to have zero intention to get your view changed, were offending or diminishing the arguments of others without real foundation and most of your comments got downvoted. It was interesting to watch

[maurosQQ]

I have awarded a delta for a new perspective. If you mean by offending that I said to one dude that he doesnt seem to have a good understanding of SC2 I think this is waranted, since SC2 has excactly what he described as postive in LoL aswell and since he himself said he doesnt have much clue. Can you point me to another instance where I was offending or diminished arguments without foundation?

[James_Locke]

You are demanding that people change your taste. You obviously have tons of time on your hands, unlike most people, to keep up with so many esports, so yeah, youre gonna be sad about the systematic nature of LOL.

[dvidsilva]

sorry poor wording in my side. Meant something like it was a matter of personal opinion and that is hard to defend or change.

[ContemplativeOctopus]

That is exactly what this sub is about. It's not supposed to be easy.

[MasterGrok]

I don't see how you can say more tournaments and competitions equals more important competitions what I love about League in comparison is that you have a series of events that are regionally determined all leading up to one grand event with the entire world. I like that. I like seeing the regions work to better themselves and seeing how their different metas and strategies will interact when they finally meet at world's. Frankly, having constant international tournaments gets boring for me because you see one meta develop with very little creativity happening in different places.

[maurosQQ]

[STA-CITE]>Frankly, having constant international tournaments gets boring for me because you see one meta develop with very little creativity happening in different places. [END-CITE]This wasnt the case in S2, when the circuit was way more international and I dont see why this would be the case if the circuit would change. And more tournament means more BoX series that matter. Who cares more about a Bo1 or Bo2 in the regular season more than about a playoffs Bo5?

[ncolaros]

I don't watch any professional gaming stuff, but let me try to compare this to sports. Every year, there is one Super Bowl. It's really exciting, and is consistently the most watched thing ever. Every four years, there's an Olympics. It's also very exciting, and a lot of people watch it. If they had 4 Superbowls every year, less people would watch it. If they ha the Olympics twice a year, less people would watch it. This might not be the case for you, but for most people, things lose their novelty when the're overdone.

[Casbah-]

[STA-CITE]> Every year, there is one Super Bowl. It's really exciting, and is consistently the most watched thing ever. [END-CITE]Not even top 5, just sayin'...

[ncolaros]

Ever in US history, I should have said. My point being that the fanbase you're going for (ie Americans) is ravenous about it.

[maurosQQ]

In SC2 and Dota (two of the other major eSport titles) there is also this huge tournament in the end. As it is for LoL. But they still have more smaller tournaments and more playoff situation on the way. Then there is the one tricky one. CS:GO has a system similar to the Tennis circuit. You have 3 or 4 majors, comparable to the Grand-Slam tournaments and then some more smaller tournaments like other tournaments in Tennis. I mean this works fine for Tennis and I guess many Tennis fans like their format over the 1 big-thing a year circuit. I saw this argument quite a bit and somehow I think its kind of a valid point, but I dont quite see how this can be bound back useful to the different eSports, since they are mostly similar in the 1 big thing per year, but the stuff around this 1 huge tournament is where the differences mostly lie.

[MasterGrok]

That is exactly why I got bored with S2. Ya the meta changed, but in the same way for the best players everywhere.

[maurosQQ]

What? There wasnt really that much of a clear meta in S2. Many teams played their own style and clashed. TSM, M5, CLG.EU, Azubu Blaze and Frost, WE, TPA all played a very distinct style and prioritised different picks. I would say that the meta now, is way more uniform than it was back in the day.

[darkclaw6722]

The reason why there wasn't a clear meta was because the pros just weren't as good at the game as they are now. You may be suffering from a bit of nostalgia, but no one in their right mind can say that S2 play was objectively better. It may have been fun to watch, but once the scene became better, people started mastering pools of champions instead of just a few. This led to people playing the absolute best picks in the meta that they mastered, which coincided a lot. In S2, the champions that pros mastered were not always the best for the meta, so you ended up having teams rising and falling drastically when things like the assassin came in.

[maurosQQ]

[STA-CITE]>but no one in their right mind can say that S2 play was objectively better. [END-CITE]Where did I say this? And I dont see what this has to do with my position? Can you bind it back?

[Darkstrategy]

Just a note, rewatch games from season 2. You'll notice that pros then are actually not that great at the game compared to now. And their macro strategies are abysmal. Usually just deathball teamfights. The meta was less rigid for a few reasons. People weren't min-maxing the most efficient strategies yet, and there were still a bunch of sleeper OP champions. From Froggen playing Anivia just because he was good at her and liked the champ, to Regi playing AP Sion mid because Sion was originally a tank and people didn't realize it could be a thing. Nowadays that type of min-max happens extremely fast. With analysts, coaches, tons of pros, aspiring pros, and the sheer amount of players around the world playing the process has been condensed to a matter of weeks to figure out meta shifts.

[maurosQQ]

I agree, but I dont see how this tackles my view in any way.

[Darkstrategy]

It doesn't directly change your view, which is why I didn't comment on the thread itself and merely replied to a comment of yours. It's just something to keep in mind. You were saying that the meta in season 2 was a lot less rigid even though it was a more international affair. I'm saying it was a lot less rigid more due to people not knowing how the game worked yet and a lack of infrastructure.

[woahmanitsme]

That last sentence isn't true! In dota 2 there are constant international tournaments yet consistently different top picks from different regions

[Stokkolm]

More tournaments is not necessarily better. I heard some Dota 2 pros say they feel burned out and struggle to stay motivated, and that winning or getting far in a competition is not as rewarding when there are so many of them.

[maurosQQ]

I didnt talk about being better, but about being less boring and more competitive. But yes, to much is probably not great either, but if I had to chose between no or very little tournaments against to much I would always go with to much.

[James_Locke]

I dont think you know what better means...

[Rammite]

[STA-CITE]> but about being less boring and more competitive. [END-CITE]this counts as 'being better'