WMN: t3_3ixtu4_t1_cuklqh9--TIO1

[TITLE]

CMV: Consuming fiction in any form (i.e. books, comics, movies, sitcoms, video games, music, etc) is a waste of time.

[IWillNotLie]

Fiction merely provides entertainment. It doesn't help us grow at all. There are other sources of information that help us grow much better. If that is so, what is the point of fiction apart from a source of entertainment that may or may not help us in the long run? If all it does is provide short-term joy, what is the point of it? Is our time not better spent trying to grow ourselves? Why waste our time trying to entertain ourselves when we could just use other forms of relaxation between sessions of growing ourselves? Is that not the goal of life? To improve and advance our lives and those of others? Or am I wrong? Is fiction truly of some use? Or if it isn't of any use, then should we still consume it? If so, why? Why not simply just exercise, meditate or sleep instead of reading fiction? What makes fiction a better alternative to those activities?

[ImpossibleKintsugi]

I am a 25 year old woman who reads comics. Comics and fiction in general are great for me. They give me something to do in my downtime where I don't have to worry at all except about hitting the generally-right-side-of-my-tablet-screen to change the page. I talk to people about them. A lot. I socialize with people about comic characters, events, so on and so forth. I go to the comic store and talk to people. I get into fun arguments about which Flash is the better flash. I also am given something to look forward to each week. I exercise and sleep plenty. I do both better than most people I know. I'm relatively fit. I even, bizarrely, got called skinny today.

[Fidesphilio]

Some people use fiction as an escape and a way to relieve mental stress. Anecdotal, yes, but without fiction, I'd never have survived high school. I would have been one of those sad statistics on teen suicides. Also it can be enormously rewarding to create. How is it not worthwhile to apply one's mind to building whole worlds and universes from the scraps of ideas? I also think it helps us develop our empathy/reasoning skills-----to create characters you have to get into that character's head and see things from their viewpoint (which, unless said character is a shitty mouthpiece for your own views) may be radically different from yours.

[rollingForInitiative]

Entertainment is a crucial way for people to relax, unwind, and recover from the seriousness of other things in life. Even if fiction were only good for entertainment (which I disagree with), it would be still be valuable. It makes us happier. It gives us things to discuss with other people, it gives us many reasons to actually talk to people, it builds up common interests that might not have existed otherwise. So even as pure entertainment, it's important. Aside from the importance of entertainment, fiction serves as a great way to consider our society and ourselves. For instance, I am gay. When I was growing up, watching or reading stories that had gay characters was a very important part of accepting my sexual orientation. It gave me hope, it showed me that it didn't have to be bad, etc. It gave me some outlet when I didn't dare discuss it with anyone.

[Tony_M_Cannoli]

the arts are a waste of time... and going on reddit to seek validation for your opinion of this isn't a waste of time?

[BeaverFur]

No no no no! [STA-CITE]> Fiction merely provides entertainment. It doesn't help us grow at all. [END-CITE]Many people here are arguing this points, saying that fiction provides *more* than entertainment and does help you grow. While true, I think they're conceding a very important point: What is wrong with being "merely" entertained? I'd say that entertainment has value on itself, and doesn't need to also be a growth catalyst in order to be "worthy" of our time. This kind of mindset is the gateway to cultural elitism and belittling those people who prefer being entertained in (what you consider) a "mindless" way. Entertainment provides desirable and engaging experiences. People perceive having more of these experiences as something that improves their quality of life, which is a valuable goal on itself. The reason I go hiking (to say an example) is not to exercise myself, or being in contact with nature or any other elevated or high-minded purpose. Yes, those are all benefits of hiking, but the actual reason I do it is simply that I find it to be an engaging and fun experience on its own. [STA-CITE]> Is that not the goal of life? To improve and advance our lives and those of others? [END-CITE]NO! No no no! That might be *your* goal for *your* life. But that doesn't make it **the** goal of life! Other people might have different goals which are as valid to them as yours is to you. Other people might value having a good quality of life and maximizing the quality and quantity of their personal experiences as more important than gaining knowledge on whatever topic. [STA-CITE]> Why not simply just exercise, meditate or sleep instead of reading fiction? [END-CITE]This is a false dilemma. You can do all of those things and still read fiction and consume entertainment. Reading fiction does not stop you from reading, say, an essay if you feel like it. These are all different things that provide very different kinds of value.

[cdb03b]

1) Science fiction, for one type of fiction spurred on the development of: The microwave, the cell phone, quick time video making software, 3D printing and many other devices. When asked what prompted them to develop these inventors specifically cite Science fiction stories that they consumed growing up and as adults as the strongest influence. Fiction also teaches you how to use your imagination and think outside the box. Without fiction we would not be nearly as inventive as a species, and may not have any technology at all. 2) Creating art in any form is expressing and growing as a person and civilization. Why do you want to eliminate 3/4 or more of the methods of creating art? When people talk about "grow ourselves" it is the arts, emotional expression, and expansion of the imagination that we are talking about. You want to eliminate the primary methods of "growing ourselves". 3) Entertainment is vitally important for psychological well being. It is needed to help your brain be more efficient. Most people to not find entertainment in non-fiction. Non-fiction is more akin to doing history homework. Without entertainment we wear out and suffer from stress, which causes many types of illness which can in turn lead to death.

[cephalord]

Every once in a while these 'why isn't everyone composing music in their free time?" topics come up. The answer is the same as to why you don't have the body of an elite athlete and read scientific literature while working on a fusion reactor in your garage.

[Stokkolm]

Why is growing important? If you had everything, what would you do, how would you spend your time? Wouldn't the only thing left to do at that point be to seek entertainment?

[mitchyboy]

To each their own, but the 'life' you propose doesn't seem worth living, and I'm an educated person who does spend a lot of time reading non-fiction and watching docos. Should people take an active interest in bettering themselves physically and mentally? Absolutely. But what's the point of being smart or strong if your miserable? I think you are too quick to dismiss the value and importance of entertainment.

[IWillNotLie]

Why is entertainment mandatory? Can humans not be satisfied with their lives without entertainment?

[philotrow]

Here's an idea: facts are entertaining. Learning new things is inherently pleasurable, whether you are learning about the method JJ Thomson used to discover electrons, or learning about a war between dragons in a fantasy novel. The only reason people want to do either of these things is because it brings them some kind of satisfaction. Creation is also entertaining. When people do new scientific research or design and build useful things, they are thinking in new ways, and when they discover or create something new, they get a feeling of pleasure from it. They are also engaged by the process of the work; sometimes it is just hard, but often they enjoy it. Why is that? The exact same thing happens when people make art. They are making something new, generating ideas and shaping them to communicate their ideas and emotions. Conversations are entertaining. Do you ever talk to people just for fun? Why? I'll proffer a possibility: when you have a conversation, you not only develop your own ideas, but you LEARN what other people have to say about your ideas and about their own experiences. It is still learning and growing. People can't help but be entertained. It's what we do. I have a question for you: what is growth? What is the growth and improvement you're talking about that doesn't include fiction? How is a person better after they've grown? I'm asking because many people feel that art is a means of personal growth. It helps them think creatively, and it introduces concepts that affect the way they live their lives. For example, after reading a tragedy about a parent who loses a child to a freak accident, the person might reconsider how they have been living and decide to spend more time with their family. But, you object: couldn't a newspaper article about a real life situation where this happens have the same effect? If you compare a newspaper article and a short fiction story, you will find them wildly different. A good article tries to be concise and factually accurate. It avoids emotional bias. A short story, however, is carefully written to elicit a particular scene in the brain. It uses small details, carefully chosen "facts" with associations that connect to our real world experiences. A newspaper article would describe the way the child died: electrocution. A story would describe how the child died holding a toy that their mother bought them on a business trip. It will describe the appearance of the child's electrocuted body, and the facial expression of the mother when they get the telephone call saying what happened to their child. It would be wrong to write those details in a newspaper article. That doesn't mean that they aren't true, though. In fiction, you do not have the constraints of particular historical circumstances and the privacy of real people: you can write true things by making them up. Emotional resonance is perfected by a disregard for "facts". These facts still can have a lasting effect on people's lives, often for the better.

[forestfly1234]

Well hmm. Let's look if there is a desire for people to consume fiction. I mean if it was a waste of time than people would make the choice not to consume it and there wouldn't be a business in selling it. A simple Amazon search seems to prove that a lot of people disagree with you.

[IWillNotLie]

I don't think all humans are averse to wasting time.

[insaneHoshi]

[STA-CITE]>Is fiction truly of some use? [END-CITE]You ever try and hit on a guy/girl by talking about what media they consume?

[IWillNotLie]

That's a very good counter to my view. It's already been presented before by another poster and has helped change my view. However, I think you still deserve a ∆ for a clever yet sufficient counter.

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[Nobody_That_You_Know]

According to some research, reading a fictional novel can improve a person's ability to see someone else's perspective and empathize with them. It can improve the way a person relates to those around them, which can impact their life in a significant way. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-athletes-way/201401/reading-fiction-improves-brain-connectivity-and-function

[IWillNotLie]

Among other comments, yours was instrumental in helping me change my view. Understanding other humans and their ways of thinking is significantly important. ∆

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[baddoom]

**Knowledge** * Fiction can inspire interest and further reading / investigation into a particular topic - science, historical events, social issues, different cultures/societies, technologies. * Fiction can allow one to empathize with different perspectives they would have not previously considered or found difficult to wrap their head around. * It can assist one to observe and understand the complexity of human emotions and relations. * In many science studies, they will get the test subjects to consume fiction while they scan their brains to observe how they respond to certain stimuli that would otherwise be unsafe/hard to find within the immediate vicinity = increased understanding of how our noggins work = better medications, better health policies, more effectively directed funding in health industry = overall healthier population... eventually. **Health** * Many people cite fiction - music, video games, watching films/tv series, etc as a mental escape that helps them unwind at the end of the day and calm down. There is ample info out there that details the negative effects pent up frustration and stress can have on both your mental and physical state. * It can inspire other people to create their own fiction - music/art/film/write which is also a good stress-reliever. * Refer to last point under **Knowledge** **Career Progress/Social life** * Consuming fiction can inspire one to take up creating it themselves and some make a career out of it. Movie stars/directors, artists and musicians didn't decide to be those things in a vacuum. I think you'll find most were inspired by consuming fiction beforehand. * Many people will be inclined, after consumption, to take it up as a hobby = join community groups/forums, take classes etc = new friends - if you don't think making new friends can help one grow as an individual then I don't know what will. Edit: miswording

[IWillNotLie]

That last point... That's the most convincing here. Fiction as motivation for socializing with others makes me think that fiction is, after all very useful. The other points also helped change my view, but this one was the strongest one for me. ∆

[quigonjen]

To emphasize that point, popular shows often have an influence on the career choices of their target generation--shows like NYPD Blue, Bones/CSI, Dexter, etc. have all had significant effects on the interest and enrollment of students in those fields.

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[___OccamsChainsaw___]

[STA-CITE]> Fiction merely provides entertainment. It doesn't help us grow at all. [END-CITE]That is unequivocally false. Fiction can be entertaining but its value comes from its ability to help the reader (watcher, listener &c.) grow. Good art will express something the consumer already feels or knows but is unable to describe (how *Hannibal* treats and presents the beautiful and grotesque identically), or force on to the consumer an experience or point-of-view alien to them (like the post-war dissatisfaction and purposelessness of WWI vets as presented in *The Sun Also Rises*), or explore an aspect of life in an allegorical way to highlight certain aspects of it (like how *Alien* is one big giant rape metaphor). All these things can be done in exciting ways but the goal is not excitement. These things contribute to the personal growth of the consumer in ways dry non-fiction or unaided introspection cannot. It's one thing to read about Russia's 19th century identity crisis, but another thing entirely to anthropomorphize it and view ideology on such a personal scale (The Brothers Karamazov). It's one thing to think about how charming people can get away with horrible things, but another thing entirely to be drawn in yourself without even realizing it (Lolita). It's one thing to read "people usually prefer independence to dependence even when there are costs associated with the former", but another thing entirely to read: *Here at least* *we shall be free; the Almighty hath not built* *Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:* *Here we may reign secure, and in my choice* *to reign is worth ambition though in Hell:* *Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.*

[IWillNotLie]

Hmmm... Interesting. Reading the first paragraph reminded me that reading fiction allows me to learn how better to express my own thoughts. It helps me establish order in my chaotic mind. ∆ well deserved.

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[Abohani]

[STA-CITE]> Is that not the goal of life? To improve and advance our lives and those of others? [END-CITE]If you consider being happy an improvement to being sad and that some people feel happy consuming fiction then it might make more sense to consume it .

[IWillNotLie]

Can't I be satisfied with life without fiction?

[jayjay091]

you can also be satisfied with life without exercising, meditating etc.. We do a lot of stuff that are not necessarily. but isn't the point of life to do things that makes us happy?

[Abohani]

That depends on what your life is like, for some people fiction is the only fun they have. This is clearly not ideal but most people don't have the power to change this non ideal situation.

[SemideL]

[STA-CITE]> Fiction merely provides entertainment. It doesn't help us grow at all. [END-CITE]I think you should define what you mean by "growing" here. Do you mean a specific kind of development? If yes, in what direction? What skills should we develop or what form of progress should we pursue instead of enjoying entertainment media? [STA-CITE]> Why waste our time trying to entertain ourselves when we could just use other forms of relaxation between sessions of growing ourselves? [END-CITE]Such as? Isn't every form of relaxation "entertainment" by definiton? [STA-CITE]> Is fiction truly of some use? [END-CITE]I would argue yes: Fiction, despite being fictional, can still be as useful for intellectual stimulation as traditional education. Here are some examples: * Video games like "This War of mine" try to offer a perspective of struggling civilians in a war-torn country for those lacking first-hand experience of war. * The novel "Animal Farm" can convey a basic understanding of political and sociolgical development of capitalistic societies into autocratic dictatorships. * Reading classical German poetry, like the famous works of Goethe, can complement a historical education about Central Europe in the 18th and 19th century, as well as giving insight into moral and cultural ideas prevalent during that time. As I tried to point out, the distinction between "waste of time" and "effective use of time" isn't that clearly cut.

[IWillNotLie]

[STA-CITE]>Do you mean a specific kind of development? [END-CITE]I'm mostly referring to development of intelligence and/or knowledge. [STA-CITE]>Isn't every form of relaxation "entertainment" by definiton? [END-CITE]By relaxation, I mean meditating, sleeping, taking a stroll in the park, or taking a contemplative bath. [STA-CITE]>I would argue yes: Fiction, despite being fictional, can still be as useful for intellectual stimulation as traditional education. Here are some examples: [END-CITE][STA-CITE]>* Video games like "This War of mine" try to offer a perspective of struggling civilians in a war-torn country for those lacking first-hand experience of war. >* The novel "Animal Farm" can convey a basic understanding of political and sociolgical development of capitalistic societies into autocratic dictatorships. >* Reading classical German poetry, like the famous works of Goethe, can complement a historical education about Central Europe in the 18th and 19th century, as well as giving insight into moral and cultural ideas prevalent during that time. [END-CITE]But these aren't as effective as reading or watching commentaries by experts on these subjects, are they? [STA-CITE]>As I tried to point out, the distinction between "waste of time" and "effective use of time" isn't that clearly cut. [END-CITE]But, if you aren't using your time in the most efficient way possible, aren't you wasting it? That's how I see it. Am I wrong?

[cdb03b]

[STA-CITE]> I'm mostly referring to development of intelligence and/or knowledge. [END-CITE]Parable and story has been the primary way of developing and passing on knowledge and wisdom for all of human history. Without it we cannot develop intelligence and/or knowledge. [STA-CITE]> By relaxation, I mean meditating, sleeping, taking a stroll in the park, or taking a contemplative bath. [END-CITE]Everyone needs a different method of relaxation, and the ones you name are not the primary methods used by most of the planet. Why do you want to eliminate methods? Expanding methods is much more productive to making life better. [STA-CITE]> But these aren't as effective as reading or watching commentaries by experts on these subjects, are they? [END-CITE]They are often more effective. That is why when you are in a class or listening to a lecture they give anecdotes and use parables to better communicate a point. In fact those deemed experts in educating int he field are masters at relaying via parables, just having knowledge does not make you an expert. [STA-CITE]>But, if you aren't using your time in the most efficient way possible, aren't you wasting it? That's how I see it. Am I wrong? [END-CITE]You are wrong. We are not automatons or robots. We are living beings and when you boil things down the entire purpose of our existence is to mate, find enjoyment in our activities, and to work to obtain the things needed to survive to accomplish those two things. You are trying to remove one of the two primary biological goals.

[down42roads]

[STA-CITE]> But these aren't as effective as reading or watching commentaries by experts on these subjects, are they? [END-CITE]Parables and stories have been used as a method for imparting wisdom and morality for millennia. Explaining the academic reasons why being methodical and deliberate is far less engaging than the story of the tortoise and the hare, for example. Having a variety of methods to teach and to learn is very important. [STA-CITE]>But, if you aren't using your time in the most efficient way possible, aren't you wasting it? That's how I see it. Am I wrong? [END-CITE]The other key thing to consider is that you don't always train by repeating the end goal. Reading fiction, especially at a young age, can develop the habits and skills needed to engage with more academic works later on. Just as professional athletes begin by playing tee-ball and freeze tag as children, scholars and scientists often begin with the Bernstein Bears and Harry Potter. Just as you wouldn't expect a child to just pick up a bat and glove and step onto the baseball diamond, you shouldn't expect a child to delve into peer-reviewed studies and historical research.

[IWillNotLie]

Yes, but what about adults? I don't remember if I was clear about it in the main post, but I was referring to the use of fiction for adults rather than for children.

[quigonjen]

[Here's one way that fictional storytelling in TV affects adults.](http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/08/31/432294253/how-shows-like-will-grace-and-black-ish-can-change-your-brain)

[down42roads]

Elsewhere, you said: [STA-CITE]>Can you argue in favour of other forms of fiction, such a fiction for young adults or adolescents? [END-CITE]Even for adults, my point still stands. Usain Bolt, Peyton Manning and LeBron James don't **just** sprint, throw footballs, and shoot baskets. They go to the gym, do agility drills, etc. Even as adults, we need to home our skills in a less-stressed environment. Beyond that, we also need to unwind. We can't be all go, all the time. Eventually, you'll get burnt out if you only read treatises on international economics, or peer reviewed studies on the effects of non-native algae on aquatic ecosystems. Sometimes, you just need to read about a lovable buffoon escorting a fated hero, or a dedicated lawyer fighting for the little guy. Maximum efficiency is an ideal, but even the most efficient engine needs to be shutdown occasionally for an oil change and an inspection.

[kittynaed]

How is a stroll in the park a more effective use of an hour than a few chapters of a book? Wouldn't both, by your definition, be wasting time? Neither improves anything about you in a significant way. Nor does excessive sleep or taking a 'contemplative bath'. Fiction is a great distraction. Much like meditation or any other use of idle time it allows your mind to continue working on more imperative problems while not focusing on them directly. Fiction may open your eyes to new ideas you wouldn't know to seek out otherwise. It is an active process so improves many mental functions as well.

[IWillNotLie]

I was referring to those activities as relaxation from activities that help us grow. If you keep trying to grow yourself without rest, you will not grow efficiently as you will wear yourself out.

[kittynaed]

And i was referring to reading fiction as relaxation. It's a thing to do in ones down time or to take a break. It is no worse or less useful than the things you mentioned, so i do not see how it can be classified as a waste.

[RustyRook]

[STA-CITE]> Is that not the goal of life? To improve and advance our lives and those of others? [END-CITE]I think fiction in the form of books is an important way of improving ourselves. Literature has a wonderful way of imparting morals - those hours spent hallucinating the words on pages in our minds seems to have a positive effect on people's feelings. So many people *identified* with the troubles of Holden Caulfield when they were younger and his reconciliation helped them reconcile something inside themselves, it did for me. Besides, fiction is a great way of expanding our knowledge of history, language, art, and much more. Reading To Kill a Mockingbird is to be taken back to another time and *live* the experience through the characters in the book. And some books serve an important social function - 1984 is hailed as a visionary work. I love reading fiction, and I know that I'm not alone. When I'm reading I'm even less alone.

[IWillNotLie]

But you're referring to a very specific genre of fiction, i.e. fiction that's geared towards adults. Can you argue in favour of other forms of fiction, such a fiction for young adults or adolescents? I would also like to add that although some fiction can be helpful, I don't think it would be as effective as a scientific study or a technical study on the topics that the fiction addresses, although it could be a bit more entertaining.

[Tomahawk92]

All of the books he mentioned, I was forced to read in highschool. I never would have picked them up otherwise. But reading some had profound effects on me, I could relate to people's personalities and experiences and learn the lessons they learned as I lived vicariously. These are very much young adult books that expand thought. My highschool, like many others, used them to help develop our minds.

[IWillNotLie]

Another commenter said the same thing as you and that helped change my mind, but just because I happened to view their comment before yours shouldn't mean that you lose this ∆ you deserve. Thank you.

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[RustyRook]

[STA-CITE]> Can you argue in favour of other forms of fiction, such a fiction for young adults or adolescents? [END-CITE]Sure. I didn't grow up reading literary fiction. I read Harry Potter and other stuff. It's what introduced me to books. Training wheels. And I recently started reading GRRM's work - it's pretty good stuff. I'm not even a fantasy fiction fan, but I've enjoyed it. [STA-CITE]> I don't think it would be as effective as a scientific study or a technical study on the topics that the fiction addresses, although it could be a bit more entertaining. [END-CITE]Well, maybe that's true for you. I also like reading science studies, but just facts are not context. Studies are not art, and there is some value in art. Scientists like to read fiction too, you know. :) Edit: Since you like reading studies, you may like to read a few (of many) that show the benefits of reading fiction: [#1](http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10400410802633392), [#2](http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0055341) & [#3](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3385211/). TL;DR: Reading fiction makes us more empathetic.

[IWillNotLie]

Context! Indeed, context does help digest and accept new information faster! My view has already been changed, but this what you have just said has helped further solidify my altered view. That surely deserves a ∆ doesn't it? PS: Had it not been for the other replies that I read before your own, "empathetic" would be the word for which I would have awarded you a delta for. The studies have also been helpful in understanding the points you wished to make. :)

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